[kj] OT: Culture Virus

[Alexander Smith]

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:::sigh:::

Cripes, when did you become such a hateful little creep? Or is this 
just some sort've wind-up? In any event, here's my bottom line on the 
issue: I may fundamentally disagree with Peter West on a variety of 
issues, but he's still as entitled to his opinions as I am of mine. I'd 
also like to re-emphasize the fact that the discussion he and I (and 
several others) were involved with dealt with matters of larger scale 
than dealing with something as ultimately trivial as entertainment/rock 
music.

Secondly, I think ChristianRock *DOES* suck. I think I resent it 
because it comes across as entirely agenda-driven. That may not bug 
you, but it bugs me. It doesn't mean I think they should all be rounded 
up and exiled, it just means I'd prefer they kept their particular 
brand of prosthletyzing to themselves.

"Maybe, but that doesn't undermine the "fact" that his work is 
legendary. Not to mention the fact that his Xian era works were 
probably among the most musically complex of his entire career."

Legendary means nothing to me. Gary Glitter is legendary too, but you 
don't see me championing him either. To each their own. Muscial 
complexity, also, isn't necessarily a staple of quality. Marillion are 
technically complex as well, does that make them legendary? Thought not.

"IMO you are protraying the trait of prejudice in your stance because 
you don't automatically despise the output of people who are of other 
faiths, only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and since it 
would appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are in fact 
hypocritical. Now most people, yourself included, might say that this 
is a minor issue, we're only talking about entertainment. But anyone 
observing this list from the outside would see that we hold popular 
music in high esteem. We value it not only for it's artisitic qualities 
but for it's potential to impact popular thinking and change society as 
we know it. So to automatically write off an individual artists output 
solely because of their faith is to not only limit your own listening 
choices, but it says something about how you view Xians as a whole if 
you are so willing to write off their artistic endeavors in a media 
that you hold in very high esteem."

I didn't say I *DESPISED* Christians (that's how you spell it, by the 
way) because of their music, but rather that I don't think it's very 
good, or at least it's not my cup of tea, or simply that I think it 
SUCKS (and I still think that) for reasons I've expressed above. For 
what it's worth, let's expand this.....I prefer my rock music to be 
ENTIRELY SECULAR. I do not decry other people for their respective 
faiths, but I'd rather not be subjected to music that extols the 
tennets of said faith. If they want to listen to it, bully for them, 
but don't ask me to enjoy it.

"And after another 20 years you haven't matured enough to stop thumbing 
your nose at a strawman? You should really be discussing this with your 
parents and possibly a professional counselor. You're obviously 
horribly scarred."

You seem to think that I'm plagued by this, when in truth, I couldn't 
give less of a damn. But, clearly, you're out either to wind me up or 
exact revenge for touching on a nerve of yours with something I said 
earlier. Either way, I resent your tone and your sentiment, and I'd 
thank you to leave my parents out of this.

Shove it up your ass, while you're at it.

Merry Christmas,

Alex in NYC


>









On Saturday, December 20, 2003, at 02:53 PM, culture.virus wrote:

>
> At 08:42 PM 12/19/03, Alex wrote:
>
>> Okay, here we go....
>>
>> "Alex, do you not see your own hypocrisy?"
>>
>> No, but I *DO* see a big middle finger pointed right at YOU!
>
> I thought you might not.
>
>
>> "You and many others on the Gathering have blasted Peter for his 
>> statements
>> about the 'sword of Islam' and then you turn around and paint all Xian
>> musician's art as moot simply
>> because of their religious beliefs?"
>>
>> You may notice, I wrote: "1. They're Christians, which renders their 
>> music
>> instantly moot, as far as I'm concerned." There is a *HUGE* 
>> difference between
>> decrying an entire faith as zombified zealots sworn to the abject 
>> destruction
>> of all non-believers and expressing the opinion that "Christian Rock" 
>> sucks so
>> bad that it's not even worth discussing...once again, AS FAR AS I'M 
>> CONCERNED.
>
> I agree that there is BIG difference of scale. Nor was I implying that 
> you have decried Xians as a whole. That being said you have made a 
> prejudicial statement when you say "They're Christians, which renders 
> their music instantly moot, as far as I'm concerned." You have 
> prejudged all endeavors at music by Xians to be of such a nature as to 
> "suck a giant bag of greasy dicks."
>
>>  Peter was talking about warfare, I was discussing entertainment. Does
>> expressing my disdain for Evanescence's music mean that I think all 
>> Christians are
>> the enemy? No, but it means I think their weak -ass attempts at rock 
>> suck giant
>> bag of greasy dicks.
>>
>> "Bruce Cockburn is a Xian is his body of work moot?"
>>
>> I've never been a fan
>
> Nor am I a "fan" but it's obvious that his work in the 
> singer/songwriter subgenre of rock is of very high stature.
>
>
>> "What about Dylan?"
>>
>> I've *NEVER* been a fan of Bob Dylan
>
> Maybe, but that doesn't undermine the "fact" that his work is 
> legendary. Not to mention the fact that his Xian era works were 
> probably among the most musically complex of his entire career.
>
>
>> *What about any number of classical composers?"
>>
>> That's not Rock.
>>
>> "And what about reggae?"
>>
>> That's not Christian, and technically, that's not rock either.
>
> AFAIC all modern music owes a good deal of it's roots to the blues and 
> therefore rock as well. Reggae is a post rock and roll genre.
>
>
>> "Is it all moot because of their religious beliefs?"
>>
>> I never said that. My point was that Christian Rock sucks...a 
>> statement I'll
>> stand behind.
>
> So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft 
> of musical value? You don't even have to hear it, it just 
> automatically sucks. Do you ever stop and wonder why right leaning 
> people in the US accuse the left leaning of being elitist?
>
>
>> "After all a great deal of reggae is overtly religious in it's lyrical
>> content."
>>
>> True, but that's reggae.
>>
>> "Does Cat Stevens automatically suck because of his allegiance to 
>> Allah?"
>>
>> Did I ever suggest as much?
>
> So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft 
> of musical value?
>
>
>> "Do Live automatically suck because of the Buddhist slant?"
>>
>> No, they automatically suck BECAUSE THEY'RE LIVE!!!!!
>
> So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft 
> of musical value?
>
>
>> " When are you and the other members of this list going to see that 
>> you're as
>> prejudiced and hateful as the people you condemn?"
>>
>> Number one, I'm not PRE-JUDGING Evanescence. I've had the TREMENDOUS
>> MISFORTUNE of hearing their music....thus, my judgement of them is 
>> based on the
>> evidence, not on preconceptions.
>
> No you're not prejudging Evanescence, you're prejudging all 
> acknowledged Xian Rock as sucking. In fact if I stripped your 
> statement out of it's original context you stated that any music by a 
> Xian is moot. You don't see that as being prejudicial? So as I tried 
> to say before the list, you included, were slagging Peter for the 
> trait of prejudice, a trait most of us see as a negative. IMO you are 
> protraying the trait of prejudice in your stance because you don't 
> automatically despise the output of people who are of other faiths, 
> only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and since it would 
> appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are in fact 
> hypocritical.
>
> Now most people, yourself included, might say that this is a minor 
> issue, we're only talking about entertainment. But anyone observing 
> this list from the outside would see that we hold popular music in 
> high esteem. We value it not only for it's artisitic qualities but for 
> it's potential to impact popular thinking and change society as we 
> know it. So to automatically write off an individual artists output 
> solely because of their faith is to not only limit your own listening 
> choices, but it says something about how you view Xians as a whole if 
> you are so willing to write off their artistic endeavors in a media 
> that you hold in very high esteem.
>
>> Moreover, after fourteen years of Catholic
>> education, I feel no qualms about speaking out about a faith I was 
>> raised within.
>
> And after another 20 years you haven't matured enough to stop thumbing 
> your nose at a strawman? You should really be discussing this with 
> your parents and possibly a professional counselor. You're obviously 
> horribly scarred.
>
>
>> " BTW I'm no fan of Evanescence either."
>>
>> How nice for you.
>>
>> Alex in NYC
>> reply to home e-mail: vassifer@earthlink.net
>
> I am culturevirus
> _______________________________________________
> Gathering mailing list
> Gathering@misera.net
> http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering
>

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<bigger>:::sigh:::


Cripes, when did you become such a hateful little creep? Or is this
just some sort've wind-up? In any event, here's my bottom line on the
issue: I may fundamentally disagree with Peter West on a variety of
issues, but he's still as entitled to his opinions as I am of mine.
I'd also like to re-emphasize the fact that the discussion he and I
(and several others) were involved with dealt with matters of larger
scale than dealing with something as ultimately trivial as
entertainment/rock music.


Secondly, I think ChristianRock *DOES* suck. I think I resent it
because it comes across as entirely agenda-driven. That may not bug
you, but it bugs me. It doesn't mean I think they should all be
rounded up and exiled, it just means I'd prefer they kept their
particular brand of prosthletyzing to themselves. 


<color><param>A6FA,2C9A,A1A3</param>"Maybe, but that doesn't undermine
the "fact" that his work is legendary. Not to mention the fact that
his Xian era works were probably among the most musically complex of
his entire career."

</color>

Legendary means nothing to me. Gary Glitter is legendary too, but you
don't see me championing him either. To each their own. Muscial
complexity, also, isn't necessarily a staple of quality. Marillion are
technically complex as well, does that make them legendary? Thought
not.


<color><param>BE40,32D1,B82A</param>"IMO you are protraying the trait
of prejudice in your stance because you don't automatically despise
the output of people who are of other faiths, only Xians. Therefore by
displaying prejudice, and since it would appear you view prejudice as
a negative trait, you are in fact hypocritical. Now most people,
yourself included, might say that this is a minor issue, we're only
talking about entertainment. But anyone observing this list from the
outside would see that we hold popular music in high esteem. We value
it not only for it's artisitic qualities but for it's potential to
impact popular thinking and change society as we know it. So to
automatically write off an individual artists output solely because of
their faith is to not only limit your own listening choices, but it
says something about how you view Xians as a whole if you are so
willing to write off their artistic endeavors in a media that you hold
in very high esteem."


</color><color><param>1160,04A4,10D1</param>I didn't say I *DESPISED*
Christians (that's how you spell it, by the way) because of their
music, but rather that I don't think it's very good, or at least it's
not my cup of tea, or simply that I think it SUCKS (and I still think
that) for reasons I've expressed above. For what it's worth, let's
expand this.....I prefer my rock music to be ENTIRELY SECULAR. I do
not decry other people for their respective faiths, but I'd rather not
be subjected to music that extols the tennets of said faith. If they
want to listen to it, bully for them, but don't ask me to enjoy it.


</color><color><param>AC98,2E1A,A712</param>"And after another 20
years you haven't matured enough to stop thumbing your nose at a
strawman? You should really be discussing this with your parents and
possibly a professional counselor. You're obviously horribly scarred."</color>


You seem to think that I'm plagued by this, when in truth, I couldn't
give less of a damn. But, clearly, you're out either to wind me up or
exact revenge for touching on a nerve of yours with something I said
earlier. Either way, I resent your tone and your sentiment, and I'd
thank you to leave my parents out of this.


Shove it up your ass, while you're at it.


Merry Christmas,


Alex in NYC



<excerpt>

</excerpt><color><param>1160,04A4,10D1</param>

</color><color><param>BE40,32D1,B82A</param>

</color>






</bigger>

On Saturday, December 20, 2003, at 02:53 PM, culture.virus wrote:


<excerpt>

At 08:42 PM 12/19/03, Alex wrote:


<excerpt>Okay, here we go....


"Alex, do you not see your own hypocrisy?"


No, but I *DO* see a big middle finger pointed right at YOU!

</excerpt>

I thought you might not.



<excerpt>"You and many others on the Gathering have blasted Peter for
his statements

about the 'sword of Islam' and then you turn around and paint all Xian

musician's art as moot simply

because of their religious beliefs?"


You may notice, I wrote: "1. They're Christians, which renders their
music

instantly moot, as far as I'm concerned." There is a *HUGE* difference
between

decrying an entire faith as zombified zealots sworn to the abject
destruction

of all non-believers and expressing the opinion that "Christian Rock"
sucks so

bad that it's not even worth discussing...once again, AS FAR AS I'M
CONCERNED.

</excerpt>

I agree that there is BIG difference of scale. Nor was I implying that
you have decried Xians as a whole. That being said you have made a
prejudicial statement when you say "They're Christians, which renders
their music instantly moot, as far as I'm concerned." You have
prejudged all endeavors at music by Xians to be of such a nature as to
"suck a giant bag of greasy dicks."


<excerpt> Peter was talking about warfare, I was discussing
entertainment. Does

expressing my disdain for Evanescence's music mean that I think all
Christians are

the enemy? No, but it means I think their weak -ass attempts at rock
suck giant

bag of greasy dicks.


"Bruce Cockburn is a Xian is his body of work moot?"


I've never been a fan

</excerpt>

Nor am I a "fan" but it's obvious that his work in the
singer/songwriter subgenre of rock is of very high stature.



<excerpt>"What about Dylan?"


I've *NEVER* been a fan of Bob Dylan

</excerpt>

Maybe, but that doesn't undermine the "fact" that his work is
legendary. Not to mention the fact that his Xian era works were
probably among the most musically complex of his entire career.



<excerpt>*What about any number of classical composers?"


That's not Rock.


"And what about reggae?"


That's not Christian, and technically, that's not rock either.

</excerpt>

AFAIC all modern music owes a good deal of it's roots to the blues and
therefore rock as well. Reggae is a post rock and roll genre.



<excerpt>"Is it all moot because of their religious beliefs?"


I never said that. My point was that Christian Rock sucks...a
statement I'll

stand behind.

</excerpt>

So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft
of musical value? You don't even have to hear it, it just
automatically sucks. Do you ever stop and wonder why right leaning
people in the US accuse the left leaning of being elitist?



<excerpt>"After all a great deal of reggae is overtly religious in
it's lyrical

content."


True, but that's reggae.


"Does Cat Stevens automatically suck because of his allegiance to
Allah?"


Did I ever suggest as much?

</excerpt>

So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft
of musical value?



<excerpt>"Do Live automatically suck because of the Buddhist slant?"


No, they automatically suck BECAUSE THEY'RE LIVE!!!!!

</excerpt>

So is it only Xian attempts at pop/rock that are automatically bereft
of musical value?



<excerpt>" When are you and the other members of this list going to
see that you're as

prejudiced and hateful as the people you condemn?"


Number one, I'm not PRE-JUDGING Evanescence. I've had the TREMENDOUS

MISFORTUNE of hearing their music....thus, my judgement of them is
based on the

evidence, not on preconceptions.

</excerpt>

No you're not prejudging Evanescence, you're prejudging all
acknowledged Xian Rock as sucking. In fact if I stripped your
statement out of it's original context you stated that any music by a
Xian is moot. You don't see that as being prejudicial? So as I tried
to say before the list, you included, were slagging Peter for the
trait of prejudice, a trait most of us see as a negative. IMO you are
protraying the trait of prejudice in your stance because you don't
automatically despise the output of people who are of other faiths,
only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and since it would
appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are in fact
hypocritical.


Now most people, yourself included, might say that this is a minor
issue, we're only talking about entertainment. But anyone observing
this list from the outside would see that we hold popular music in
high esteem. We value it not only for it's artisitic qualities but for
it's potential to impact popular thinking and change society as we
know it. So to automatically write off an individual artists output
solely because of their faith is to not only limit your own listening
choices, but it says something about how you view Xians as a whole if
you are so willing to write off their artistic endeavors in a media
that you hold in very high esteem.


<excerpt>Moreover, after fourteen years of Catholic

education, I feel no qualms about speaking out about a faith I was
raised within.

</excerpt>

And after another 20 years you haven't matured enough to stop thumbing
your nose at a strawman? You should really be discussing this with
your parents and possibly a professional counselor. You're obviously
horribly scarred.



<excerpt>" BTW I'm no fan of Evanescence either."


How nice for you.


Alex in NYC

reply to home e-mail: vassifer@earthlink.net

</excerpt>

I am culturevirus 

_______________________________________________

Gathering mailing list

Gathering@misera.net

http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering


</excerpt>
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