[kj] OT: Final Word on 'Christian Rawk'
Ross O'Donoghue
gathering@misera.net
Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:09:50 +0200
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Amen.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Alexander Smith=20
To: gathering@misera.net=20
Sent: 21 Aral=FDk 2003 Pazar 18:39
Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Final Word on 'Christian Rawk'
****ALEX'S FINAL WORD ON THE GREAT CHRISTIAN ROCK WIND-UP OF 2003****
Culture Virus et al.,.......
Seems we're all a little more reasonable on Sunday mornings. Wonder =
why that is!
Look, in all candor, my initial comments about Evanescence were =
basically a dismisive joke. In truth, as Cutlure Virus, pointed out, =
their lyrics only *VAGUELY* (from what I can hear) allude to their =
faith. But, it has been largely documented that they sprang from the =
community of 'Christian Rock'. And seriously --- regardless of your =
spiritual leanings, you must admit me this: 'CHRISTIAN ROCK' AS A VIABLE =
GENRE is pretty damn awful (please read: CHRISTIAN ROCK and *NOT* Rock =
made by Musicians who *HAPPEN* to be Christians. I'm talking about a =
SPECIFIC GENRE). Said scene has yet to produce an act that is capable of =
transcending the limitations of their genre (i.e. constant allusions to =
worshiping the lord) and reached a larger audience. The only real =
example that comes to mind is fuckin' Creed (and please, please, please =
don't try to tell me that they don't suck!) But all those other bands: =
DC3, Jars of Clay and whatnot....regardless of their spirituality, I =
just happen to think their music isn't very good and that they're way =
too caught up in "the message".=20
Now, does this mean that I think *ALL* music that is religiously =
devout stinks? Hell no. I just bought a compilation of Bhangra music, =
and that stuff's pretty damn devout. Perhaps I'm able to tolerate that =
because it is so comparitively exotic or more because your average =
Bhangra musician doesn't seem to be out to convert me. Maybe I'm wrong =
about that.
I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I only wish we were having this =
debate over something I'd said with a bit more conviction rather than as =
a passing, derisive jibe.=20
Sorry I told you to shove it up your ass as well, but that's what you =
get when you call someone a scarred hypocrite in dire need of =
professional help.
"Yeah I know, what is it with you and Ross and this spelling thing?"
What's so tough about spelling it out? Worried that the big man =
upstairs is going to materialize like Hastur the Unspeakable and smite =
thee for blaspheming? (that was a joke, stay calm!)
I'm really not interested in getting into any more stupid spats about =
fuckin' Religion (with you *OR* with the mysterious Mr.West) It's such a =
hot-button topic that only leads to needless acrimony.
Peace on Earth, Good Will towards Killing Joke.
Amen,
Alex in NYC
On Sunday, December 21, 2003, at 03:20 AM, culture.virus wrote:
At 02:33 PM 12/20/03, you wrote:
:::sigh:::
Cripes, when did you become such a hateful little creep?
Truly Alex, I'm not hateful regarding this. As a matter of fact in =
general I hold you in pretty high esteem.
Or is this just some sort've wind-up?
No, but I admit that I can wind things up abit.
In any event, here's my bottom line on the issue: I may =
fundamentally disagree with Peter West on a variety of issues, but he's =
still as entitled to his opinions as I am of mine.
I don't take your responses as being such that you truly think that =
Peter was entitled too them. You and others IMO rightfully slapped him a =
bit for some of his statements. He wasn't just "entitled" too them =
because the list response was to tell him what an awful idiot he was and =
that his position reeked of intolerance and possibly racism. I think you =
and others on this list often display similar tendencies towards anyone =
that is a Christian.
I'd also like to re-emphasize the fact that the discussion he and =
I (and several others) were involved with dealt with matters of larger =
scale than dealing with something as ultimately trivial as =
entertainment/rock music.
I granted you that before
Secondly, I think ChristianRock *DOES* suck. I think I resent it =
because it comes across as entirely agenda-driven. That may not bug you, =
but it bugs me. It doesn't mean I think they should all be rounded up =
and exiled, it just means I'd prefer they kept their particular brand of =
prosthletyzing to themselves.
Agenda driven music can be distasteful. And it occurs all over the =
popular music scene. But you didn't say that. You didn't say that Xian =
rock sucks or even that agenda driven music sucks. You said music by =
Xians is automatically moot/sucks. Now maybe didn't mean that.
Evanescence's music isn't of the prosylitizing variety as I pointed =
out in another post so they may suck in general but they are not like =
what you described above. In my experience most Xian artists just want =
to make the best music they can and not betray their beliefs. Do you =
really know that many bands in the little world that is the Xian rock =
scene?
I think we would both agree that making quality music is not easy. =
In addition to the mastery of an instrument it takes things such as =
intelligence, drive, artistic vision and more. To me to say that a =
person of a particular faith is by default not capable of achieving such =
a high level mastery of particular area of human endeavor is the =
equivalent of other negative stereotypes. Do you see why I found your =
statement offensive?
"IMO you are protraying the trait of prejudice in your stance =
because you don't automatically despise the output of people who are of =
other faiths, only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and since =
it would appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are in fact =
hypocritical. Now most people, yourself included, might say that this is =
a minor issue, we're only talking about entertainment. But anyone =
observing this list from the outside would see that we hold popular =
music in high esteem. We value it not only for it's artisitic qualities =
but for it's potential to impact popular thinking and change society as =
we know it. So to automatically write off an individual artists output =
solely because of their faith is to not only limit your own listening =
choices, but it says something about how you view Xians as a whole if =
you are so willing to write off their artistic endeavors in a media that =
you hold in very high esteem."
I didn't say I *DESPISED* Christians (that's how you spell it, by =
the way)
Yeah I know, what is it with you and Ross and this spelling thing?
because of their music, but rather that I don't think it's very =
good, or at least it's not my cup of tea, or simply that I think it =
SUCKS (and I still think that) for reasons I've expressed above. For =
what it's worth, let's expand this.....I prefer my rock music to be =
ENTIRELY SECULAR.
I can respect that you on the whole would prefer not to be =
prosylitized while listening to music. I can also respect that it's not =
always easy to be indifferent to music if it's lyrical content is =
something that you find particularly offensive or distasteful. Hell =
that's one of the things that conservative religious types will agree =
with you on. But look at your music collection. I'll bet we'll find =
music by acknowledged pagan and magickal types, Rastafarians, Buddhists, =
a Hindi or two, same with Islam, probably someone Jewish. I'll bet that =
some of that music has lyrical content that speaks of life from their =
particular spiritual knothole. Just to keep this on-topic, Jaz' lyrics =
are often spiritual in nature. I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't =
automatically write-off all those artists just because they happen to =
share a bit about their beliefs in their music. If someone comes to you =
and says "this is a great a band, they've got a unique sound, they've =
got really good songs and they're Xian". Do you automatically say to =
yourself (or out loud), "Xian? No thanks, I already know it sucks" or =
"They could be the band of the decade and I still wouldn't own their =
records"? If your response is similar, but you wouldn't have that same =
response to the same description with the word Buddhist or Hindi =
inserted instead, then I'd say that yes you are prejudiced against Xians =
on that level and perhaps others as well. BTW just to show that I know =
you're not as bad as all that I'll bet you do have at least one release =
by an acknowledged Xian. Fer instance alot of people will have a Moby =
disc.
Damn, long paragraph. Sorry to ramble so.
I do not decry other people for their respective faiths, but I'd =
rather not be subjected to music that extols the tennets of said faith. =
If they want to listen to it, bully for them, but don't ask me to enjoy =
it.
"And after another 20 years you haven't matured enough to stop =
thumbing your nose at a strawman? You should really be discussing this =
with your parents and possibly a professional counselor. You're =
obviously horribly scarred."
You seem to think that I'm plagued by this, when in truth, I =
couldn't give less of a damn. But, clearly, you're out either to wind me =
up or exact revenge for touching on a nerve of yours with something I =
said earlier. Either way, I resent your tone and your sentiment, and I'd =
thank you to leave my parents out of this.
That part was a bit of wind up. It was supposed to be laced with =
sarcasm. My apologies for my tone.
Yes you did touch a nerve, I don't like intolerance and I always =
find it distasteful after seeing someone else bawled out for it. As I =
said, I see it on the list often in reference to Xians while intolerance =
of other religious groups would be roundly chastised. Did you see what I =
said about ragheads and god-botherers?
Shove it up your ass, while you're at it.
Look being accused of intolerance is pretty harsh. I know it's =
something that most of us think we're above. And we may not see it in =
ourselves. People will often say things they don't realize may be =
offensive to people of groups that they may not know well. I think =
you're statements were intolerant and show some prejudice. You feel I'm =
blowing shit way out of proportion and that you are not at all =
intolerant towards Xians. I don't think you deserve to be censured or =
viewed as a mind-numbed bigot. That's not how I would describe you. I do =
think you should consider what I said.
Merry Christmas,
Same to you, seriously
Alex in NYC
I am culturevirus=20
_______________________________________________
Gathering mailing list
Gathering@misera.net
http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Amen.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:vassifer@earthlink.net" =
title=3Dvassifer@earthlink.net>Alexander=20
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:gathering@misera.net"=20
title=3Dgathering@misera.net>gathering@misera.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 21 Aral=FDk 2003 Pazar =
18:39</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [kj] OT: Final =
Word on=20
'Christian Rawk'</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>****ALEX'S FINAL WORD ON THE GREAT CHRISTIAN ROCK =
WIND-UP=20
OF 2003****<BR><BR>Culture Virus et al.,.......<BR><BR>Seems we're all =
a=20
little more reasonable on Sunday mornings. Wonder why that =
is!<BR><BR>Look, in=20
all candor, my initial comments about Evanescence were basically a =
dismisive=20
joke. In truth, as Cutlure Virus, pointed out, their lyrics only =
*VAGUELY*=20
(from what I can hear) allude to their faith. But, it has been largely =
documented that they sprang from the community of 'Christian Rock'. =
And=20
seriously --- regardless of your spiritual leanings, you must admit me =
this:=20
'CHRISTIAN ROCK' AS A VIABLE GENRE is pretty damn awful (please read:=20
CHRISTIAN ROCK and *NOT* Rock made by Musicians who *HAPPEN* to be =
Christians.=20
I'm talking about a SPECIFIC GENRE). Said scene has yet to produce an =
act that=20
is capable of transcending the limitations of their genre (i.e. =
constant=20
allusions to worshiping the lord) and reached a larger audience. The =
only real=20
example that comes to mind is fuckin' Creed (and please, please, =
please don't=20
try to tell me that they don't suck!) But all those other bands: DC3, =
Jars of=20
Clay and whatnot....regardless of their spirituality, I just happen to =
think=20
their music isn't very good and that they're way too caught up in "the =
message". <BR><BR>Now, does this mean that I think *ALL* music that is =
religiously devout stinks? Hell no. I just bought a compilation of =
Bhangra=20
music, and that stuff's pretty damn devout. Perhaps I'm able to =
tolerate that=20
because it is so comparitively exotic or more because your average =
Bhangra=20
musician doesn't seem to be out to convert me. Maybe I'm wrong about=20
that.<BR><BR>I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I only wish we were =
having=20
this debate over something I'd said with a bit more conviction rather =
than as=20
a passing, derisive jibe. <BR><BR>Sorry I told you to shove it up your =
ass as=20
well, but that's what you get when you call someone a scarred =
hypocrite in=20
dire need of professional help.<BR><BR><?color><?param =
F29D,26EA,29C6>"Yeah I=20
know, what is it with you and Ross and this spelling=20
thing?"<?/color><BR><BR>What's so tough about spelling it out? Worried =
that=20
the big man upstairs is going to materialize like Hastur the =
Unspeakable and=20
smite thee for blaspheming? (that was a joke, stay calm!)<BR><BR>I'm =
really=20
not interested in getting into any more stupid spats about fuckin' =
Religion=20
(with you *OR* with the mysterious Mr.West) It's such a hot-button =
topic that=20
only leads to needless acrimony.<BR><BR>Peace on Earth, Good Will =
towards=20
Killing Joke.<BR><BR>Amen,<BR>Alex in=20
NYC<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Sunday, December 21, =
2003,=20
at 03:20 AM, culture.virus wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>At 02:33 PM 12/20/03, you wrote:<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>:::sigh:::<BR><BR>Cripes, when did you become such a =
hateful=20
little creep?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Truly Alex, I'm not hateful =
regarding=20
this. As a matter of fact in general I hold you in pretty high=20
esteem.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Or is this just some sort've =
wind-up?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No,=20
but I admit that I can wind things up abit.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>In any event, here's my bottom line on the issue: I may=20
fundamentally disagree with Peter West on a variety of issues, but =
he's=20
still as entitled to his opinions as I am of =
mine.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I=20
don't take your responses as being such that you truly think that =
Peter was=20
entitled too them. You and others IMO rightfully slapped him a bit =
for some=20
of his statements. He wasn't just "entitled" too them because the =
list=20
response was to tell him what an awful idiot he was and that his =
position=20
reeked of intolerance and possibly racism. I think you and others on =
this=20
list often display similar tendencies towards anyone that is a=20
Christian.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>I'd also like to re-emphasize the fact that the =
discussion he=20
and I (and several others) were involved with dealt with matters =
of larger=20
scale than dealing with something as ultimately trivial as=20
entertainment/rock music.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I granted you that=20
before<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Secondly, I think ChristianRock *DOES* suck. I think I =
resent=20
it because it comes across as entirely agenda-driven. That may not =
bug=20
you, but it bugs me. It doesn't mean I think they should all be =
rounded up=20
and exiled, it just means I'd prefer they kept their particular =
brand of=20
prosthletyzing to themselves.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agenda driven =
music can be=20
distasteful. And it occurs all over the popular music scene. But you =
didn't=20
say that. You didn't say that Xian rock sucks or even that agenda =
driven=20
music sucks. You said music by Xians is automatically moot/sucks. =
Now maybe=20
didn't mean that.<BR><BR>Evanescence's music isn't of the =
prosylitizing=20
variety as I pointed out in another post so they may suck in general =
but=20
they are not like what you described above. In my experience most =
Xian=20
artists just want to make the best music they can and not betray =
their=20
beliefs. Do you really know that many bands in the little world that =
is the=20
Xian rock scene?<BR><BR>I think we would both agree that making =
quality=20
music is not easy. In addition to the mastery of an instrument it =
takes=20
things such as intelligence, drive, artistic vision and more. To me =
to say=20
that a person of a particular faith is by default not capable of =
achieving=20
such a high level mastery of particular area of human endeavor is =
the=20
equivalent of other negative stereotypes. Do you see why I found =
your=20
statement offensive?<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>"IMO you are protraying the trait of prejudice in your =
stance=20
because you don't automatically despise the output of people who =
are of=20
other faiths, only Xians. Therefore by displaying prejudice, and =
since it=20
would appear you view prejudice as a negative trait, you are in =
fact=20
hypocritical. Now most people, yourself included, might say that =
this is a=20
minor issue, we're only talking about entertainment. But anyone =
observing=20
this list from the outside would see that we hold popular music in =
high=20
esteem. We value it not only for it's artisitic qualities but for =
it's=20
potential to impact popular thinking and change society as we know =
it. So=20
to automatically write off an individual artists output solely =
because of=20
their faith is to not only limit your own listening choices, but =
it says=20
something about how you view Xians as a whole if you are so =
willing to=20
write off their artistic endeavors in a media that you hold in =
very high=20
esteem."<BR><BR>I didn't say I *DESPISED* Christians (that's how =
you spell=20
it, by the way)<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah I know, what is it with =
you and=20
Ross and this spelling thing?<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>because of their music, but rather that I don't think =
it's=20
very good, or at least it's not my cup of tea, or simply that I =
think it=20
SUCKS (and I still think that) for reasons I've expressed above. =
For what=20
it's worth, let's expand this.....I prefer my rock music to be =
ENTIRELY=20
SECULAR.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can respect that you on the whole =
would=20
prefer not to be prosylitized while listening to music. I can also =
respect=20
that it's not always easy to be indifferent to music if it's lyrical =
content=20
is something that you find particularly offensive or distasteful. =
Hell=20
that's one of the things that conservative religious types will =
agree with=20
you on. But look at your music collection. I'll bet we'll find music =
by=20
acknowledged pagan and magickal types, Rastafarians, Buddhists, a =
Hindi or=20
two, same with Islam, probably someone Jewish. I'll bet that some of =
that=20
music has lyrical content that speaks of life from their particular=20
spiritual knothole. Just to keep this on-topic, Jaz' lyrics are =
often=20
spiritual in nature. I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't =
automatically=20
write-off all those artists just because they happen to share a bit =
about=20
their beliefs in their music. If someone comes to you and says "this =
is a=20
great a band, they've got a unique sound, they've got really good =
songs and=20
they're Xian". Do you automatically say to yourself (or out loud), =
"Xian? No=20
thanks, I already know it sucks" or "They could be the band of the =
decade=20
and I still wouldn't own their records"? If your response is =
similar, but=20
you wouldn't have that same response to the same description with =
the word=20
Buddhist or Hindi inserted instead, then I'd say that yes you are =
prejudiced=20
against Xians on that level and perhaps others as well. BTW just to =
show=20
that I know you're not as bad as all that I'll bet you do have at =
least one=20
release by an acknowledged Xian. Fer instance alot of people will =
have a=20
Moby disc.<BR><BR>Damn, long paragraph. Sorry to ramble so.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>I do not decry other people for their respective faiths, =
but=20
I'd rather not be subjected to music that extols the tennets of =
said=20
faith. If they want to listen to it, bully for them, but don't ask =
me to=20
enjoy it.<BR><BR>"And after another 20 years you haven't matured =
enough to=20
stop thumbing your nose at a strawman? You should really be =
discussing=20
this with your parents and possibly a professional counselor. =
You're=20
obviously horribly scarred."<BR><BR>You seem to think that I'm =
plagued by=20
this, when in truth, I couldn't give less of a damn. But, clearly, =
you're=20
out either to wind me up or exact revenge for touching on a nerve =
of yours=20
with something I said earlier. Either way, I resent your tone and =
your=20
sentiment, and I'd thank you to leave my parents out of=20
this.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That part was a bit of wind up. It was =
supposed to=20
be laced with sarcasm. My apologies for my tone.<BR><BR>Yes you did =
touch a=20
nerve, I don't like intolerance and I always find it distasteful =
after=20
seeing someone else bawled out for it. As I said, I see it on the =
list often=20
in reference to Xians while intolerance of other religious groups =
would be=20
roundly chastised. Did you see what I said about ragheads and=20
god-botherers?<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Shove it up your ass, while you're at=20
it.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Look being accused of intolerance is pretty =
harsh. I=20
know it's something that most of us think we're above. And we may =
not see it=20
in ourselves. People will often say things they don't realize may be =
offensive to people of groups that they may not know well. I think =
you're=20
statements were intolerant and show some prejudice. You feel I'm =
blowing=20
shit way out of proportion and that you are not at all intolerant =
towards=20
Xians. I don't think you deserve to be censured or viewed as a =
mind-numbed=20
bigot. That's not how I would describe you. I do think you should =
consider=20
what I said.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Merry Christmas,<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Same to you,=20
seriously<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Alex in NYC<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am culturevirus=20
<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Gathering =
mailing=20
=
list<BR>Gathering@misera.net<BR>http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo=
/gathering<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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