[kj] o/t son of Thatcher

Fri Aug 27 09:47:41 EDT 2004

So somehow you're willing to admit that arms dealers enable tyrannical regimes to oppress their own populations (those people you were earlier supporting for acting in self-defence) and maintain their existence as dictators, purely for the pursuit of money- but you still maintain this is perfectly reasonable.

Marvellous. I actually made the mistake of thinking you might be interested in some form of rational debate.

Jim.

"peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com> wrote:
"If you manage to find out how the Saudi royal family was acting in self-defence please let me know."

*The Saudi royal family are not supported by the general population,there are groups of Saudis who want them overthrown.There are many Saudis(Bin Laden etc etc) who see The Royal family as puppets installed and supported by the west(Which IS the case)
   So the government needs arms for internal conflict,And with Iran and Iraq and Israel as neighbours, Being Armed is justified *

-It's more than likely the same arms dealer is selling weapons to your enemy. Fifty countries sold weapons during the Iran-Iraq war, and thirty-seven of them sold arms to both sides. This prolongs the conflict. 

It comesdowmn too the same argument,If a nation or people want too buy arms,What right does anybody have too deny them this.
   Arms dealers sell arms for a profit ,they dont sell too help a cause.So why should nt they sell too both sides.It's a business deal.
    Iran and Iraq were both enemys of the west in the early eighties,So as long as they were fighting each other,the West was in no danger.So we had a situation where two enemys are fighting each other and we are making a profit selling both sides weapons. 

WHO WON THE IRAN/IRAQ WAR?.............THE WEST DID

---- Original Message ----- 
From: Jim Harper 
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!) 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [kj] o/t son of Thatcher

*Innocent in your eyes,Im sure these are revenge attacks for previous attrocaties*

They may well be. It doesn't make these actions 'right', no matter how udnerstandable they may be.
*It's their culture,who are we too tell them it's wrong.Some Muslims think it's morally wrong for women too show their faces in public.Who sets the standards?.

In that case, I would say it's up to the people involved. If they're forced to behave that way, it's wrong. If it's their choice, fair enough. Regarding the specific discussion, genocidal attacks, rape gangs, etc etc are *not* culturally enshrined and will always be wrong.

*If he was going too kill someone who was about too burn his village down,And commit attrocites.Would it then be O.K. too sell him the gun?
   Again, who deicides whos right and whos wrong?*

Interesting. The possibility of altruistic motives on the part of arms dealers. Mark Thatcher is believed to have earned himself £12 million for setting up a deal with the Saudi Arabian government. If you manage to find out how the Saudi royal family was acting in self-defence please let me know.

Besides, as you well know, weapons are not sold for self-defence. They are sold for money. There is no altruistic motive. It's more than likely the same arms dealer is selling weapons to your enemy. Fifty countries sold weapons during the Iran-Iraq war, and thirty-seven of them sold arms to both sides. This prolongs the conflict. 

Basically, it's not a 'grey area'. Arms dealers prolong conflicts and support tyrannical regimes, because it keeps their cashflow coming in. Your attempts to reduce this argument to the question of whether a man should acquire a weapon to defend himself are hardly relevant, since we are talking about the people who profit from that man's misery and his unpleasant situation rather than the man himself. If you cared so much for this hypothetical 'man', you would be condemning those who seek to prolong his misery and the wars that tear his country apart.

Jim Harper.

"peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com> wrote:

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jim Harper 
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!) 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [kj] o/t son of Thatcher

Bad example. If the police could get hold of both the buyer and the seller, they would.
*Fair enough*

I'm not really concerned about the views of certain groups in Africa; 
*I dont think they are too concerned about your point of veiw either*

there is (to a certain extent) such a thing as 'cultural morality', but slaughtering innocents does not figure into the equation.

 Being an independent nation has absolutely nothing whatsoever to with believing genocide, rape gangs etc etc are morally acceptable; 
*It's their culture,who are we too tell them it's wrong.Some Muslims think it's morally wrong for women too show their faces in public.Who sets the standards?.

they aren't, and there isn't an argument that will make them acceptable.

As for getting them off someone else. You're absolutely right, they will almost certainly buy weapons off some other seller. But guess what: it's still wrong. The idea that you might as well sell them weapons because if you don't someone else will is completely farcical. It's okay for me to give a guy a gun, knowing he's going to kill someone, because if I don't give it to him he'll get it from someone else? Ho ho. Not quite.

*If he was going too kill someone who was about too burn his village down,And commit attrocites.Would it then be O.K. too sell him the gun?
   Again, who deicides whos right and whos wrong?*

Jim Harper.

"peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com> wrote:
Taking a moral stance is a difficult one too call, because everyone has different morals.Im sure the people warring in Africa think they are morally just in doing what they are doing. 
    As they are independent nations and peoples,they should deicide the level of morality.
      If MT was the only one who could provide arms then yes he should stop.But the facts are ,If he stopped,someone else would provide them.
    I think it comes down too who is at fault ;The provider or the perpetrator.
      If you went too South America and brought some Bolivian marching powder back too Heathrow and you got caught by customs,Who would be in trouble ?You or the person you brought it off?  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jim Harper 
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!) 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [kj] o/t son of Thatcher

You seem to be missing the obvious point here; even if it isn't Mark Thatcher forcing them to do what they do, giving them the weapons to do it is still morally indefensible.

Jim.

"peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com> wrote:
So you are saying Mark Thatcher supplied the machetes too hack limbs,The
matches too burn villages and penises too rape.How can you accuse him of
supplying those?.Or is it a case of "poor African corrupted by European",The
Africans bought the weapons out of choice,And use them as they see fit.
If I went too the builders merchant and bought materials too make a
house.Went away an made one which subsequently fell down.Who s fault would
it be ?mine or the builders merchant?Mine obviously.(It's not the supplier
too blame,It's the person who did it,Who's responsible)
Those kind of things would nt happen in England,I don't believe anybody
in England is capable of amputating a childs limb in the name of revenge,And
as a nation we would nt use systematic rape as a weapon(Which is happening
in Africa NOW)
Your opinion of African nations is that they cant think for
themselves,which is a colonist attitude.If Mark Thatcher is responsible for
conflict in Africa then Arms manufacturers must be responsible for the Gulf
war.NO George and Tony were responsible for the Gulf and Africans are
responsible for African wars.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Perry" 
To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"

Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: [kj] o/t son of Thatcher

> --- "peter.west410" 

> wrote:
>
> > There is far too many people living in
> > Africa
> >
> > Ah, Peter - I sincerely hope you were just saying
> this to provoke
> a response, and don't actually believe it. Substitute
> 'England' for Africa and it would be more accurate.
> Then imagine vicious militia men - perhaps armed with
> wea pons supplied by Mark Thatcher - marching into your
> town, torching everything, maybe raping and killing
> your family, perhaps hacking off a child's limbs in
> front of you, before taking you out and shooting you.
> And if you are still so keen on war, you should be
> careful what you wish for.
> N
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Neil Perry" 
> > To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > band!)"
> > 
> > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 3:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [kj] o/t son of Thatcher
> >
> >
> > > Humanity? This person has spent his 'career'
> > selling
> > > arms to mercenaries/tinpot dictators and wiping
> > out
> > > 'humanity'. He's killed more people than cancer.
> > > Nothing to do with his parentage - in fact you're
> > > right, I hope he doesn't die in a prison - I hope
> > he
> > > stays just alive enough to suffer. And if you
> > think
> > > union members are parasites, what do you call
> > someone
> > > who gets rich off the countless vicious little
> > African
> > > wars that cause so much misery and destruction?
> > Mark
> > > Thatcher is a scum-sucking piece of crap.
> > > N
> > >
> > > --- "peter.west410" 

> > > wrote:
> > > > It's unfortunate that you judge someone ,before
> > a
> > > > trial or anything.Just
> > > > because someone gets arrested doesn't mean they
> > are
> > > > guilty.
> > > > Or do you think Children should be held
> > > > accountable for their parents
> > > > lifes.If that is your reasoning then MT should
> > be
> > > > released immediately
> > > > ,because Maggie Thatch achieved some great
> > > > things,She destroyed the
> > > > unions(parasites),sold off council houses thus
> > > > destroying scummy council
> > > > estates,Kicked the argies arses and even
> > produced
> > > > her own phallic
> > > > symbol(Canary Wharf)
> > > > She was unpopular,But she sinle-handedly
> > pulled
> > > > the U.K.out of the far
> > > > left labour induced recession ,a case of "Being
> > > > cruel too be kind".
> > > > If you would like anybody too be put in a
> > "
> > > > Dark African jail and
> > > > butt-fucked too death",Then I suggest you plug
> > > > you rself into the internet
> > > > and download a bit of humanity.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Neil Perry" 
> > > > To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > > > band!)"
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:58 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [kj] o/t son of Thatcher
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Best news I've heard in a long time. Fuck him,
> > the
> > > > > greasy
> > > > > little arms-dealing scumbag. I've often
> > wondered
> > > > how
> > > > > long it would
> > > > > be before his own stupidity would drop him in
> > the
> > > > > shit. The icing on
> > > > > the cake was after he got arrested, he was in
> > the
> > > > > holding cell in court
> > > > > and he was robbed by the other prisoners, they
> > > > took
> > > > > his shoes, jacket and mobile. I hope he gets
> > put
> > > > away
> > > > > in some dank forgotten South African prison
> > and
> > > > gets
> > > > > buttfucked to death.
> > > > > Now watch his lawyers help him squirm out of
> > the
> > > > whole
> > > > > thing...
> > > > >
> > > > > N, full of the joys of life
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- woody2shooz 
> > wrote:
> > > > > > lost in Africa
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...again? What is this Grantham gened family
> > up
> > > > to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > graham>
> > > > >
> > _______________________________________________
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