[kj] OT: The great Punk Debate tea sippers read ; >

Matthew Burke marsboy1 at msn.com
Mon Oct 18 02:28:55 EDT 2004 

Yeah!  If New York would have had a garbage strike when the Ramones started 
they would have had a harder edge.  But our refuse collectors were satisfied 
with their wages, and we were smart enough to throw out the monarchy 200 
years earlier. That's why there's a noticeable influence of 50's pop in 
Ramones music and not so much the nihilist rebellion of the Pistols.

Add: If the term "punk" came from the title of a fanzine created in New York 
to cover the scene the Ramones were creating, can we not agree that punk was 
"literally" created in New York?  Leaving its spiritual foundations to 
debate.

And here's a new twist in favor of the tea sippers, I believe that somehow, 
some way, The Who were also a big influence on punk rock.



>From: fluwdot at earthlink.net
>Reply-To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)" 
><gathering at misera.net>
>To: gathering at misera.net
>Subject: Re: [kj] OT: The great Punk Debate tea sippers read ; >
>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:27:40 -0400
>
>neil types<<They may have come first, but they never
>  really got it...>>
>
>
>got what? that the royal family is a joke... burn london? > whatever
>whatever. one version of punk got it and the other didn't? the early
>american punk take on things was different than the brits because it
>is a different country with somewhat different impetus for the music.
>so what's to get? if anything the uk's first and most historically
>referenced era quickly I'mploded into a trite superficial fashion
>circus mess.
>
>crass and the clash did well but most uk punk is best served as good
>sound-track for spiky dressup pub crawling and sing along with your
>mate jollys - lacking the fire of iggy and the stooges or mc5. hence
>the evolution of the remarkable post punk bands - now that's a genre
>where the uk really had something to offer.
>
>meanwhile in america, punk upped the anti (pun intended) and became a
>legitimate force, bad brains, dead kennedys, feederz, minor threat
>etc. etc. hell the US (link wray) started punk and then the 2nd wave
>of US punk bands saved punk from the uk's glitter eye shadow punk
>hype embers.
>
>the uk just happened to catch punk at it's peak of popularity/hype
>but not at it's essence.
>
>it's all good
>
>
>t
>
>
>
>
>
>On 18 Oct 2004 at 4:14, Neil Perry wrote:
>
> > Yeah but Alex, I think what Rob's saying is that,
> > well, the American bands weren't really *proper* punk,
> > were they? They may have come first, but they never
> > really got it...
> > Fastening the hatches on my shelter now
> > N
> >
> >
> >  --- Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > "I have always seen the Ramones as an update of the
> > > 60's garage bands.
> > > Great pop songs but never what I would term "punk"."
> > >
> > > ROB, MY BLOOD IS BOILING. I'M GOING TO FLY OVER TO
> > > ENGLAND AND KILL YOU
> > > AND BUILD A HOVERCRAFT WITH YOUR BONES AND SAIL BACK
> > > TO THE STATES ON
> > > IT.
> > >
> > > ALEX IN NYC..HELL BENT ON HOMICIDE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 05:10 PM, Rob's Arse
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > That's a good point Peter.
> > > >
> > > > I have teased Alex for ages about this, but I have
> > > always viewed the
> > > > Dolls as Glam. Trashy, yes but Glam.
> > > >
> > > > I have always seen the Ramones as an update of the
> > > 60's garage bands.
> > > > Great pop songs but never what I would term
> > > "punk".
> > > >
> > > > Punk is much more than the music. I love the
> > > nihilism of the Pistols
> > > > and the general "up yours" attitude. The WHY?
> > > That's why I belive that
> > > > Punk is English.
> > > >
> > > > You American guys had a good go though. Full marks
> > > for effort lads ;-)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- "peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: "peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com>
> > > > Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:56:59 +0100
> > > > To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > > band!)"
> > > > <gathering at misera.net>
> > > > Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all
> > > of it
> > > >
> > > > I think that the NY dolls were part of the glam
> > > movement,When exactly
> > > > did
> > > > the Ramones first tour the UK? and the Ramones
> > > were never more than a
> > > > cult
> > > > band in the UK.
> > > > Right, you can generally put any noisy, out of
> > > tune band and say they
> > > > were the original punk band ,some even give
> > > examples of bands from the
> > > > 60s
> > > > ,saying they can be classed as punk.
> > > > I think the only way to do it is to see where the
> > > first single which
> > > > was punk as we know it,I put in a search for
> > > "First punk single" and
> > > > it came
> > > > up with"New Rose" by "The Damned".
> > > > Right, all we have to do is find out where The
> > > Damned came from,and
> > > > that place will be where punk originated.
> > > > Does anyone know where The Damned came from?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Christof hamille"
> > > <wessidetempest at hotmail.com>
> > > > To: <gathering at misera.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 3:41 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all
> > > of it
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Agreed Alex
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to obvious. If you have not read or
> > > figured out that none
> > > > of the
> > > > > punk bands in England happened until AFTER the
> > > Ramones toured there
> > > > then
> > > > you
> > > > > can look at McLaren and realize that he knew
> > > NOTHING about it until
> > > > he saw
> > > > > Richard Hell in NYC and came back to England
> > > with the infamous white
> > > > Les
> > > > > Paul that was passed on to Steve Jones. That
> > > guitar was originally
> > > > owned
> > > > by
> > > > > one Sylvain Sylvain of the NEW YORK DOLLS. And
> > > along with that that
> > > > is
> > > > > where he got the idea of the tattered clothing
> > > with the spray painted
> > > > > phrases on them. So no matter how you slice it
> > > it started in NYC. It
> > > > > exploded in England.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is all of the repeated energy I am putting
> > > into this
> > > > >
> > > > > enjoy
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
> > > > > >Reply-To: "A list about all things Killing Joke
> > > (the band!)"
> > > > > ><gathering at misera.net>
> > > > > >To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > > band!)"
> > > > > ><gathering at misera.net>
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
> > > all of it
> > > > > >Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:02:47 -0400
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Not that it's not a compelling debate, Peter,
> > > but with Mik Raven
> > > > absent,
> > > > I
> > > > > >can't summon the stamina to get into it here
> > > again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I'll just cite two names to cement my point:
> > > THE RAMONES and RICHARD
> > > > HELL.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Alex in NYC
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 08:42 PM,
> > > peter.west410 wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>"As was Punk Rock".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>No way,It may have been conceived in NY,But it
> > > was born & breed in
> > > > the
> > > > > >>UK.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Original Message -----
> > > > > >>From: "Rob's Arse" <joker at Z6.com>
> > > > > >>To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > > band!)"
> > > > > >><gathering at misera.net>
> > > > > >>Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:00 PM
> > > > > >>Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
> > > all of it
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>I never got what they were about. Just didn't.
> > > > > >>I have always found them totally alien.
> > > > > >>Whiney brats.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Saw ice Cube once too.Reading festival. So
> > > lame it was embarassing.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>--- Mark G Holt <akillingjoker at yahoo.co.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>From: Mark G Holt <akillingjoker at yahoo.co.uk>
> > > > > >>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:05:04 +0100 (BST)
> > > > > >>To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
> > > band!)"
> > > > > >><gathering at misera.net>
> > > > > >>Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
> > > all of it
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>i love the beasties too, alex, for what its
> > > worth
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> For what it's worth, I think Eminem may
> > > indeed be clever --- BUT
> > > > I'M
> > > > > >> FUCKIN' SICK OF HIM!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Hip Hop I *DO* actually like, despite my
> > > genre-sweeping
> > >
> > === message truncated ===>
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