[kj] OT: The great Punk Debate tea sippers read ; >

Mon Oct 18 08:49:06 EDT 2004

Penelope Spheeris' "Suburbia" was a mid-80's film.  By that point, 
cries of authenticity were moot (and those were largely hardcore kids 
anyway).

"When I first got into the scene, I hadn't really heard of the Ramones"

Well, you wouldn't have been hearing the bands you WERE hearing had it 
not been for the Ramones. You're welcome.

Alex in NYC

On Monday, October 18, 2004, at 05:59 AM, Patrick Davies wrote:

> Can anyone remember Suburbia? The 'punk' film that came out of the US.
> We were facking killing ourselves laughing at the exploited stylee
> 'punks' and their pet rats.
>
> As children we called ourselves punks but soon realised that the tag 
> was
> a stereotype that wasn't what we were about.
>
> When I first got into the scene, I hadn't really heard of the Ramones 
> or
> anyone else. I simply saw what was happening on the street.
>
> The explosion from the youth culture that was stagnant spawned so much
> diversity that any band was able to ride the wave and hence the fact
> that people trying to analyse get confused.
>
> The younger ones at the time related to what came on Top of the Pops
> whilst others refused to have much to do with bands that appeared on 
> it.
> Someone bought Plastic Bertrands records while others listened to 
> Eater.
>
>
> One of the truly amazing things I can recall one day in a sunny town in
> England was when a collective of 'punks' sitting on the post office
> steps with a bunch of skinheads remarkably dressed in crombies, ben
> shermans and stapress stood and watched in admiration when 200 hundred
> hells angels drove down the street. At that moment it felt that we were
> taking over and there were no bands there.
>
> Argue what you like about which bands you want in the spotlight, but
> they fed off the scene that came from what was happening on their
> streets. While the London media focussed on the kings road each town 
> had
> their own influences. It was different in Scotland as it was in
> different parts of the UK and therefore in the usa.
>
> I knew mates who hung around the kings road to get money off the
> Japanese tourists by posing for photos. Pink Mohicans and studded
> jackets to look the part as that's what made them money. Personally I
> never had a studded jacket and we had long before thrown away the
> Ramones stylee biker jacket as being too mainstream, too stereotypical
> American and rocknroll.
>
> I recall circa 78 wearing the beer towels on our *rses and then Sounds
> were selling bum flaps and off they came. Meanwhile someone was buying
> up this stuff and telling everyone that they were a punk. Buy an
> identity time folks!
>
> First killing joke gig would have seen blacked out combat trousers over
> paratrooper boots. Dyed black shirts as we stuck two fingers up at the
> commercialism in the back of sounds and the clash in the advert for
> bondage trousers.
>
> after a crass gig in Manchester circa 82 I remarked to Penny Rimbaud
> that they should stand in a shop window in Kings Rd as suddenly so many
> were wearing black berets and clothing. At this time I saw some start
> wearing flares again. [poor old graham thought he could fly with them 
> on
> as he ran from the police on the top floor of a multi storey car park].
>
> When the british movement were trying to smash our heads in during a 
> gig
> I don't think there was anyone who gave two f*cks which band first
> started punk. One of the best things now is the lack of violence at
> gigs, but then gigs are less enthralling nowadays
>
> You have instigators and you have followers. Yet there is no one way 
> and
> no one version. One of the most influential things to occur to me was 
> an
> interview on telly with SLF who were encouraging us all to get up and 
> do
> it ourselves. I watched the Grundy farce but that interview with slf 
> was
> far more instigating than any other self indulgent rockstar wannabe in 
> a
> far away city
>
> Earl Grey please
>
> iPat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fluwdot at earthlink.net [mailto:fluwdot at earthlink.net]
> Sent: 18 October 2004 05:28
> To: gathering at misera.net
> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: The great Punk Debate tea sippers read ; >
>
> neil types<<They may have come first, but they never
>  really got it...>>
>
>
> got what? that the royal family is a joke... burn london? > whatever
> whatever. one version of punk got it and the other didn't? the early
> american punk take on things was different than the brits because it
> is a different country with somewhat different impetus for the music.
> so what's to get? if anything the uk's first and most historically
> referenced era quickly I'mploded into a trite superficial fashion
> circus mess.
>
> crass and the clash did well but most uk punk is best served as good
> sound-track for spiky dressup pub crawling and sing along with your
> mate jollys - lacking the fire of iggy and the stooges or mc5. hence
> the evolution of the remarkable post punk bands - now that's a genre
> where the uk really had something to offer.
>
> meanwhile in america, punk upped the anti (pun intended) and became a
> legitimate force, bad brains, dead kennedys, feederz, minor threat
> etc. etc. hell the US (link wray) started punk and then the 2nd wave
> of US punk bands saved punk from the uk's glitter eye shadow punk
> hype embers.
>
> the uk just happened to catch punk at it's peak of popularity/hype
> but not at it's essence.
>
> it's all good
>
>
> t
>
>
>
>
>
> On 18 Oct 2004 at 4:14, Neil Perry wrote:
>
>> Yeah but Alex, I think what Rob's saying is that,
>> well, the American bands weren't really *proper* punk,
>> were they? They may have come first, but they never
>> really got it...
>> Fastening the hatches on my shelter now
>> N
>>
>>
>>  --- Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> "I have always seen the Ramones as an update of the
>>> 60's garage bands.
>>> Great pop songs but never what I would term "punk"."
>>>
>>> ROB, MY BLOOD IS BOILING. I'M GOING TO FLY OVER TO
>>> ENGLAND AND KILL YOU
>>> AND BUILD A HOVERCRAFT WITH YOUR BONES AND SAIL BACK
>>> TO THE STATES ON
>>> IT.
>>>
>>> ALEX IN NYC..HELL BENT ON HOMICIDE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 05:10 PM, Rob's Arse
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a good point Peter.
>>>>
>>>> I have teased Alex for ages about this, but I have
>>> always viewed the
>>>> Dolls as Glam. Trashy, yes but Glam.
>>>>
>>>> I have always seen the Ramones as an update of the
>>> 60's garage bands.
>>>> Great pop songs but never what I would term
>>> "punk".
>>>>
>>>> Punk is much more than the music. I love the
>>> nihilism of the Pistols
>>>> and the general "up yours" attitude. The WHY?
>>> That's why I belive that
>>>> Punk is English.
>>>>
>>>> You American guys had a good go though. Full marks
>>> for effort lads ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- "peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: "peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com>
>>>> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:56:59 +0100
>>>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>>> band!)"
>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all
>>> of it
>>>>
>>>> I think that the NY dolls were part of the glam
>>> movement,When exactly
>>>> did
>>>> the Ramones first tour the UK? and the Ramones
>>> were never more than a
>>>> cult
>>>> band in the UK.
>>>> Right, you can generally put any noisy, out of
>>> tune band and say they
>>>> were the original punk band ,some even give
>>> examples of bands from the
>>>> 60s
>>>> ,saying they can be classed as punk.
>>>> I think the only way to do it is to see where the
>>> first single which
>>>> was punk as we know it,I put in a search for
>>> "First punk single" and
>>>> it came
>>>> up with"New Rose" by "The Damned".
>>>> Right, all we have to do is find out where The
>>> Damned came from,and
>>>> that place will be where punk originated.
>>>> Does anyone know where The Damned came from?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Christof hamille"
>>> <wessidetempest at hotmail.com>
>>>> To: <gathering at misera.net>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 3:41 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all
>>> of it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Agreed Alex
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to obvious. If you have not read or
>>> figured out that none
>>>> of the
>>>>> punk bands in England happened until AFTER the
>>> Ramones toured there
>>>> then
>>>> you
>>>>> can look at McLaren and realize that he knew
>>> NOTHING about it until
>>>> he saw
>>>>> Richard Hell in NYC and came back to England
>>> with the infamous white
>>>> Les
>>>>> Paul that was passed on to Steve Jones. That
>>> guitar was originally
>>>> owned
>>>> by
>>>>> one Sylvain Sylvain of the NEW YORK DOLLS. And
>>> along with that that
>>>> is
>>>>> where he got the idea of the tattered clothing
>>> with the spray painted
>>>>> phrases on them. So no matter how you slice it
>>> it started in NYC. It
>>>>> exploded in England.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is all of the repeated energy I am putting
>>> into this
>>>>>
>>>>> enjoy
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> Reply-To: "A list about all things Killing Joke
>>> (the band!)"
>>>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>>>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>>> band!)"
>>>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
>>> all of it
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:02:47 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not that it's not a compelling debate, Peter,
>>> but with Mik Raven
>>>> absent,
>>>> I
>>>>>> can't summon the stamina to get into it here
>>> again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll just cite two names to cement my point:
>>> THE RAMONES and RICHARD
>>>> HELL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex in NYC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 08:42 PM,
>>> peter.west410 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "As was Punk Rock".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No way,It may have been conceived in NY,But it
>>> was born & breed in
>>>> the
>>>>>>> UK.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Rob's Arse" <joker at Z6.com>
>>>>>>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>>> band!)"
>>>>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:00 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
>>> all of it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never got what they were about. Just didn't.
>>>>>>> I have always found them totally alien.
>>>>>>> Whiney brats.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Saw ice Cube once too.Reading festival. So
>>> lame it was embarassing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- Mark G Holt <akillingjoker at yahoo.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Mark G Holt <akillingjoker at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:05:04 +0100 (BST)
>>>>>>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>>> band!)"
>>>>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
>>> all of it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i love the beasties too, alex, for what its
>>> worth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For what it's worth, I think Eminem may
>>> indeed be clever --- BUT
>>>> I'M
>>>>>>> FUCKIN' SICK OF HIM!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hip Hop I *DO* actually like, despite my
>>> genre-sweeping
>>>
>> === message truncated ===>
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