[kj] (OT) SHOCK!!

[GregSlawson at aol.com]

In a message dated 9/5/2004 1:52:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
peter.west410 at ntlworld.com writes:

> I think the problem with Communism is that It's difficult to get people too 
> work without any incentive on a country-wide scale.The only way too make 
> people work hard is to offer an incentive (Either more money or not getting 
> fired).
>     Saying that it is possible on a small scale,Independent communities 
> (like Kibbutz in Israel) where people work for each other for the common good and 
> the results are tangible.If you could transfer that to a mass scale then it 
> may be possible.
>     Bin -Laden and co are not Communists or nationalists but 
> religionists(Dont think thats a word,but you know what I mean)And Cuba depends on 
> Western(Capitalist) tourist money too keep the economy going.
>    I did visit China in it's communist days(late 80s)
> 
>  
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: GregSlawson at aol.com 
>> To: gathering at misera.net 
>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 6:36 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) SHOCK!!
>>  
>> 
>> First, you're right that many terrorists are middle-class or have middle or 
>> ruling class backing (like Bin Laden). THis backs up my argument that it's 
>> part of a fight between capitalists (Bin Laden represents Saudi capitalists 
>> who don't want to share oil profits w/the US, that's why they're 
>> nationalists). Second, it's obvious, like you said, that communism didn't work in 
>> places like N Korea, although in Cuba they've done some good stuff. But neither 
>> country had real communism, and no country today has it (Cuba being the only 
>> one that has some aspects of it). People (including communists) are 
>> intelligent and are capable of learning from mistakes of the past. People will be 
>> able to learn how to implement real communism, where there is not an elite 
>> class in control, and where, like you said, people treat each other well. I 
>> know the "human nature" argument will be parrotted next, but that's another 
>> story (try talking to biologists about human nature). 
> 

I agree w/some points--I like the term "religionists", but I still think Bin 
Laden mainly represents a group of capitalists, despite all the religious 
rhetoric, etc. And by  the way, China clearly stopped being communist before the 
80s--really by about 1970 (remember when they invitied Nixon?). And I think you 
counld transfer communism to many small scales--each factory, block, school, 
etc. would have its own group running things. But the main point is abuot 
incentives to work. Even under capitalism, people are not mainly motivated by 
money, although it is a major one, and is of course necessary. People are 
motivated by many things that matter besides money--doing art or music (ever hear of 
this group Killing Joke?), doing things for their faimilies, helping out people 
in trouble, etc. And to use a historical example, the closer the Soviet Union 
was to communism (early 20s for example), the MORE people were motivated and 
the less important money was. In fact, there was a short period of a couple of 
years or so, where the civil war was so bad that there was no $ to pay 
people--it was in this period that people were so motivated that many volunteered to 
work for free, and began to industrialize their nation, leading to its 
superpower (and later capitalist) status that led to the Cold War.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://four.pairlist.net/pipermail/gathering/attachments/20040905/98528b09/attachment-0001.html