[kj] politics

[P]

Saul,

your argument is false. Capitalism certainly existed and exists - the society based on private property and free market (and occassionally also on parliamentary democracy). It is comething else to say that it didn't bring the happiness and prosperity to all as it is tought at schools.

While Communism did not exist not because it has brought a different results than official claimed but because it is a society of the future based on development (including technological development) not yet achieved.

The cause of all this whole confusion is hat most people do not have a clue what Communism is and many believe the propaganda that Communism is what we saw in USSR. This lie was too much even for such a professional liars as the leaders of Soviet block countries and so they never ever called their regimes communist and admitted they are not communist. (with partial exception Khrushchev - probably the biggest bureaucratic idiot of all times - who claimed that Communism will be reached in USSR in 1984)

[For example in Germany where political education generally is higher than in our countries even the oficial media never call the regimes in Eastern Europe "Communist"]

What we saw in Russia was revolution that placed the working class in power - smashed the private property relations - and put the country on the road to socialism (i.e. far from being Communist). However similarly as French Revolution was followed by theormidor (the political counterrevolution that smashed Jacobins and brought to power the more conservative forces) and then Bonapartism, also in Russia political counter-revolution by bureaucracy followed and smashed workers democracy and lead to Stalins bonapartism by 1929. While capitalism can develop without capitalist democracy, planned property relations cannot develop without workers democracy - and that is what happened in USSR.

Leon Trotsky's (leader of Russian Revolution with Lenin) "Revolution Betrayed" is good reading on the issue. can be found in various languages on www.marxists.org but also Lenin's works from 1918-1921 are useful reading to understand what happened. To understand what Communism is also the best reading for beginners is Lenin's "State and Revolution".

In my vuiew the best analysis of what capitalism is Marx's Das Kapital, although it is a bit difficult reading, but in Engels Anti-Duhring it more accessible reading. For what communism is NOT the "good" reading is Stalins "Questions of Leninism" (although it is quite boring for readers that prefer to read ideas). 

PAVEL




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: sade1 
  To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!) 
  Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 3:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [kj] politics


  Nothing personal, but to this whole string,
      this all seems so redundant, SO totally contradictory, and irrelevant, because, also, CAPITALISM never existed, hence addressing it is similar to chasing IMAGINED ghosts, of even Communism.  I know this because I lived under capitalism for my whole life, and one day in school actually started to read my 8th grade US History book and realized gap between the theory and harsh reality.  
  saul

  P <xps1 at quick.cz> wrote:
     But anybody with a bit of knowledge of communist ideas knows communism was never yet achieved - .... (I know this also from my personal experience since I as the only gatherer lived in such "communism" for 16 years).

    Capitalism triumphed in late 1980s/early 1990s, 


  . . . . . . .
  To all the rain and the thunder
  I'm headed into the sun,
  I wanna be there when you come....


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