[kj] Jaz Straw

[Scarlet]

God calls Abraham a prophet or Nabi in Genesis 20:7

Nice discussion, but you are wrong :)

Will
 Love
  ALWays

Scarlet

On 10/14/06, The Exorcist <killingjoke at speakeasy.net> wrote:
> This will be my last post in regards to this subject.
> I apologize to anyone bothered by this religious banter.
>
> Once again I'd like to point out that way I say here is
> in regards to Judaism. I do not speak for any other
> religion or belief.
>
> Errr, using wiki as a source is not highly valued by me.
> (I also don't see the relevance of Tanach with this discussion.
> Or of the wiki link. Navi'im (prophets) starts way after Abraham.)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Noah had "encountered god" as well. Way before Abraham. He is also
> not considered a prophet.
>
> However in the spirit of equality I'll do some wiki as well.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham
> (you'll notice that Judaism is not mentioned in reference to Abraham as a
> prophet)
>
> If you try to find the terms of "prophet" with "Abraham" you'll see that
> it's quoted mainly in association with Islamic beliefs.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "On the other hand, in the history of the People of Israel, not everyone who
> established a direct contact with the Lord was a navi (prophet): so Adam,
> Cain, Avimelekh, King of Gerar, who had direct contact with the Lord, but
> were not prophets. In connection to the latter, this is the only place where
> Abraham is called a navi, "Now therefore restore the man's wife: for he
> (Avraham) is a prophet,"
> ( we'ata hashev eshet ha'ish ki navi hu). Nevertheless, in Jewish tradition
> Moses is deemed to be the first ."
> http://www.jafi.org.il/education/jewish/navi1.html
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [some Hebrew wording is not mentioned here but the translation is.
> My mail program has issues with hebrew fonts]
>
> A careful reading of the text reveals a change in Abraham's service of God.
> When Abraham first arrived in the Land of Israel, he built an altar and
> dedicated it "to God Who had appeared to him" [Gen. 12:7]. This prayer
> expressed Abraham's gratitude for his own personal spiritual achievements.
> 'To God who appeared to him' ­ just to Abraham, the holy prophet in his own
> private spiritual realm.
> ( http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/ravkook/LECH64.htm)
> (famous Jewish Rabbi/Scholar)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My point is, that Abraham is not considered a prophet. His "prophecies" were
> only
> in regard to his personal life and offspring. His spreading the message of
> monotheism
> had nothing to do with the "words of god" and was started before he had any
> "prophecies"
>
> (quote scarlet: "and a Prophet  is a person who has directly
> encountered God, of whose intentions he can then speak,
> which to me at least makes 'em messengers)
>
> This will be my last post in regards to this subject.
> I apologize to anyone bothered by this religious banter.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Yos
>
>
> At 03:14 PM 10/14/2006, you wrote:
> well, most sincerely, Abraham and Moses are both "prophets" and a
> Prophet  is a person who has directly encountered God, of whose
> intentions he can then speak, which to me at least makes 'em
> messengers.
>
> Now admittedly this is not the same as messiah. But I think you'l find
> Abarham is thought of as a prophet, just like Mosses, and therefore a
> messenger of God.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh
>
> Will
> Love
>  ALWays
>
> Scarlet
>
> On 10/13/06, The Exorcist <killingjoke at speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
> In Judiasm:
>
> Abraham is considered a forefather not a messenger.
>
> The first one referred to as "messenger of god" is Moses.
>
> I am not referring to the origin of the Jewish ppl. I am simply stating that
> Abraham (according to Jewish belief) is not considered a messenger.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Me :)
>
>
>
>
>
> At 05:28 PM 10/13/2006, you wrote:
>
> Dude,
>
> Abraham...first Jewish Patriarch whom God chose to bless...He was the guy
> who started Judaism - geeze!
>
> While not exactly messianic, without Abraham, there's no Jewish, Muslim or
> Christian faith. Even  Mormons consider Abraham as fundamental to their
> faith.
>
> Many of the religous traditions of the Jews come from Abraham's life.
>
> Plus, Abraham is the ony guy I know who actually had a fight with god - I
> mean fisty cuffs.
>
>
> Will
>  Love
>   ALWays
>
> Scarlet
> On 10/13/06, The Exorcist < killingjoke at speakeasy.net
> > wrote:
> Jews consider Abraham as a messenger from god???
>
> Why can't we just stick with this http://www.johnofgod.com/ and leave it be?
>
> My 3 cents...
>
> At 04:44 PM 10/12/2006, you wrote:
>
> Wrong again dick!
>
> Islam believes that Jesus was a messenger from God. Some Christians (Eastern
> Orthodox) believe Jesus IS God as a man. Though Catholic and some Protetant
> sects believe Jesus was a messenger from God. Christians and Muslims and
> Jews believe Abraham was a messenger from God.
>
> The Religions are 'fundamentally different' because their basic principles
> of worship are different - though I doubt you even know what a principle is.
>
> Will
>  Love
>   ALWays
>
> Scarlet
>
> On 10/12/06, flight Bringer < flightbringer at hotmail.co.uk> wrote: Also
> Christianity , Islam and Judaism all believe in the same God , so it would
> be incorrect to label them "fundamentally different". The difference lies in
> whom they believe to be the messenger of God .
> >From: Jim Harper <jimharper666 at yahoo.co.uk > >Reply-To: "A list about all
> things Killing Joke (the >band!)"< gathering at misera.net> >To: "A list about
> all things Killing Joke (the band!)" ><gathering at misera.net > >Subject: Re:
> [kj] Jaz Straw >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:08:38 +0100 (BST) > >So it's
> possible to follow two fundamentally different religions? > >   You're such
> a twat. This whole monumental stupidity act is indeed >primarily an act, but
> what kind of idiot do you have to be to think that >permanently portraying
> yourself as mentally sub-normal is funny? Amazing. > >flight Bringer <
> flightbringer at hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >   ******Christian Jews are a small
> sect of who consider themselves to be >Christians . They are mainly Jews who
> have converted to Christianity and >they are seen as a threat to the Jewish
> Religion .
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