[kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...

[Brendan Quinn]

The stupid thing is that, contrary to what you’d think, torture doesn’t
often render much useful information, and it’s harmful not only to the
torturee but also the torturer, let alone what it does to the culture who
condones it.

 

It’s hard to know whether someone is telling the truth under torture, being
deceptive, or just saying anything to avoid the pain.

 

And re all the anti-war protests all over the world, it’s telling that even
with all that, doesn’t seem to have any effect. I’m under the impression
that more people were opposed to the UK aiding the US this time, yet Blair
still went ahead and did it. Might be wrong on that one
?

 

   _____  

From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net] On
Behalf Of sade1
Sent: Thursday, 19 June 2008 10:51 p.m.
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)
Subject: Re: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...

 


On a somewhat related vein, 

"More than four in ten Americans (43%) say that the use of torture can be
justified..."

HYPERLINK
"http://news.yahoo.com/s/pew/20080619/ts_pew/43torturejustified"http://news.
yahoo.com/s/pew/20080619/ts_pew/43torturejustified


   About antiwar protests in the US, i think (not sure) there were record 

attendance levels set during the runup to Gulf War II, as elsewhere around 

the world. A lot of people came out those days but, that said, a whopping 

80+% were also all for it on the eve of "Operation Iraqi Liberation."

[they later changed the name of it in order to get a different anagram].

 

  But yeah, if the government outshouts them, then, yeah, the Government
wins, 

hands down. It's down to a formula at this point in time.

 

 

 

... ... ... ... ... ... 
(looking at the current state of things)


'Save me..                                                

 save me from Tomorrow..                          
 I don't want to sail in this Ship Of Fools...!'   



--- On Wed, 6/18/08, folk devil <folkdevil_23 at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: folk devil <folkdevil_23 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...
To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
<gathering at misera.net>
Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 11:38 AM

Sorry Karen,
But my experience of the majority of the American public, as with other
countries, is do nothing, say nothing. They might as well be condoning the
acts.
The amount of anti war action going on, for the first 3 years at least, was
pathetic.
In fact most people shouting out against it at the time were labeled
crackpots etc..



   _____  

From: karen.weil at sddt.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:33:23 -0700
Subject: Re: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...

Ade:

 

With all due respect, the percentage who "are all for kicking Middle Eastern
ass" is much smaller than you would believe, probably just 20 percent. (And
these are the same delusional folks who will stand by our
Corrupter-in-Chief, because they are blind, selfish ideologues.) 

A good chunk of Americans have woken up, but unfortunately, there's not a
clear consensus on how to get out of Iraq now. And that's what's keeping our
soldiers there. (Of course, a little dose of fear and questioning people's
patriotism, courtesy of Bush's enablers in the corporate-owned media,
doesn't hurt, either.)

While the United States has been playing a dangerous game in that region for
many years, I don't agree with you that many people don't think we've done
"nothing" to deserve the attacks. 

There are many of us who understand what our reckless foreign policy has
wrought, but terrorist violence will never, ever solve a damn thing. 

For the record, let me clearly state that I firmly believe that -- in spite
of the U.S. bungling of foreign policy and unscrupulous motives --
3,000-plus Americans did NOT deserve to lose their lives seven years ago,
any more than innocent civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan do for the evil
deeds done by their governments.)

Thanks for letting me explain.

 

Best,

 

k.w.

San Diego 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: HYPERLINK "mailto:ade at the-lab.zetnet.co.uk" \nade 

To: HYPERLINK "mailto:gathering at misera.net" \nA list about all things
Killing Joke (the band!) 

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:51 AM

Subject: Re: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...

 

You know, I think many people in the States are all for kicking Middle
Eastern ass, because as

far as they're concerned, they've done nothing to deserve attacks such as
9/11. Successive

administrations have fucked with the M.E. so much, that the whole place is
finally fighting back.

 

The people who have been let down here are the public who frankly haven't a
clue what's been going

on in their name, have been attacked & are now on the defensive.

 

Thoughts?

-----Original Message-----
From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]On
Behalf Of Karen Weil
Sent: 18 June 2008 18:43
To: saulomar1 at yahoo.com; A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)
Subject: Re: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...

Sade1: 

 

Appreciate and understand your passionate response. My statement about
well-meaning is it seemed like that at the time. It doesn't mean it was.
This country has opened such a Pandora's Box in the Mid East, and now its
reaping the consequences. And sadly, there is a segment in the U.S. that
still doesn't get it and unfortunately, they vote en masse and as a bloc,
while most Americans stay home on election day -- and that's why we've had
the disgrace we've had for the last 7 years. But you probably don't need me
to tell you that.

(Also, Saddam invaded Kuwait because we essentially told him he could, in
April of '90.) 

Off my soap box now.

 

Keep the faith,

 

k.w.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: HYPERLINK "mailto:saulomar1 at yahoo.com" \nsade1 

To: HYPERLINK "mailto:gathering at misera.net" \nA list about all things
Killing Joke (the band!) 

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:24 PM

Subject: Re: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...

 


   I dont think U.S. policy was at all well meaning, and as for misguided, 
i thiink the U.S. stayed on-message the whole time.
   From what i've read..
 - the U.S. covertly supported the election of the last 
   pre-Soviet president of Afghanistan because U.S. knew it would 
 - provoke the Russians to invade and 
 - with Ozzie bin Ladin and the proto-Taliban the U.S. would give the
Russians 
 
"your own Viet Nam.....!"
  Pretty filthy and underhanded. 
 
  It's (somewhat) like a local land developer fomenting the wife to cheat on
her 
husband and the husband to cheat with the au pair while helpting the kids
grow 
a poppy field in the garden to keep 'em stoned -  just so the land developer
can 
run off with the house/land during the final divorce proceedings. 
 
Ingenious!
 

... ... ... ... ... ... 
(looking at the current state of things)


'Save me..                                                

 save me from Tomorrow..                          
 I don't want to sail in this Ship Of Fools...!'   



--- On Tue, 6/17/08, Karen Weil <karen.weil at sddt.com> wrote:

From: Karen Weil <karen.weil at sddt.com>
Subject: Re: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...
To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
<gathering at misera.net>
Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2008, 6:40 PM

And little did we know ...

Yet another example of what seemed like at the time as well-meaning (but
ultimately very misguided) foreign policy.

 

 

ciao,

 

k.w.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: HYPERLINK "mailto:bq at soundgardener.co.nz" \nBrendan Quinn 

To: HYPERLINK "mailto:gathering at misera.net" \n'A list about all things
Killing Joke (the band!)' 

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:23 PM

Subject: Re: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...

 

And the US supported the Taliban at the time as a proxy to fight the
Russians, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

 


   _____  


From: HYPERLINK "mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net"
\ngathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net] On
Behalf Of ade
Sent: Wednesday, 18 June 2008 9:37 a.m.
To: HYPERLINK "mailto:gathering at misera.net" \ngathering at misera.net
Subject: [kj] [KJ] OT: Afghantsi on UK channel More4 now...
Importance: High

 

On MORE4 right now, Afghantsi, a documentary about the soviets in
Afghanistan . 
Filmed during the occupation, from the Soviet POV, literally, not
propaganda. 
The squadies thought it wouldn't be that difficult... 

 

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