[kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

Karen Weil karen.weil at sddt.com
Tue Jun 16 13:18:22 EDT 2009

Thank you for sharing that with us, Jerry. My respects to your uncles. (I had several uncles who fought in WWII, but in the Pacific Theater. One was at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked in 1941.)

Cheers,

Karen W.
the States
----- Original Message -----
From: jerry bodkin
To: gathering at misera.net
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia



Darren, top post mate, that came from the heart.

Holocaust denial is just.....wrong.
My Uncle Fred (my 2nd son is named after him) was part of a British unit that liberated Belsen. I listened as a child does many years ago to the stories of his exploits in WW2, including as i say, Belsen.
His words...."we could smell it from 10 miles away" I am crying as i write about this, unashamedly. " We didnt know what was going on there" was what the local towns population said.
I am so proud of my Uncle Fred and all of those that fought against such evil, his battle honours are unbelievable, Nimejgen Bridge being his most famous, i never got to meet my Uncle Sid, who went through Dunkirk and was killed in Italy 12th May 1944. My eldest son carries his name.
As Jokers, we all know that, there is no polotic, just reason, ethics, morals. We all know what's right and wrong, end of.
Now is not the time to bitch and moan, but stand up and be counted, it's what is expected of us.
Walk towards the New Day!

Jel


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From: dpeace at bigfoot.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 19:32:02 +0100
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia


Sadly, I believe that the natural state of humanity is one of torpor. I am constantly saddened by the reluctance of people to act when confronted by a challenge of some sort. I could as easily believe that the Brits could have fallen like cattle behind a charismatic leader who gave every appearance of honouring his promises, and the occasional tax perk would seal the deal. It is a short step from that to tacitly approving, for example, “extreme rendition”, by inaction. There are some things relating to effective government that are disagreeable, and just as I believe all carnivores (such as myself) should be aware of the process by which their meal arrived in front of them, I also believe that everyone should examine, challenge and question every decision that is made on their behalf.



The Jews were not the source of greatest casualty at the hands of the Nazis (although the Russians, by and large, weren’t singled out for such hideous, organised, treatment). I am just glad that there is at least one group of people militant enough to ensure that we don’t forget what happened, for what that’s worth; I see that genocide, “ethnic cleansing” and the forest massacre are all still with us. It’s one of the reasons that I believe Holocaust denial to be such a serious crime; not because the views of the individual are of great consequence, but because of the pernicious long-term effects of such espousal.



Having said that, it is possible to be over-reactionary. The Brit drug dealers who our media recently reported were subjected to “water-boarding” by maniacal police actually had their heads flushed in a toilet bowl a few times, which, while monstrous and appalling, is not the same thing. I wish terms like “water-boarding”, which have quite specific and weighted meanings, were not bandied about; it only serves to diminish the meaning and ramification.



Darren

Hungerford, UK







From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net] On Behalf Of Jim Harper
Sent: 13 June 2009 5:57 PM
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia



Myself, I do think it is important to acknowledge the role that the ordinary German played in the Holocaust. For most of them it amounted to doing nothing to stop it or oppose the people carrying it out, either because they supported it or because they didn't want to be next on the list. However, I don't believe that the Holocaust was something that could only have happened in Germany; if WWII had never happened, we'd be learning in school about Russian, Belgian, British, Japanese (etc, ect) attempts at genocide. Anyone who honestly believes that only the Germans were pre-disposed to hideous, violent racism has almost certainly not examined the country they live in particularly closely.

Comfortable truth or not, most Germans were complicit in the slaughter, whether by active participation or be willing indifference. Were the Germans the only nation capable of it? Of course not. All humans are capable of sheep mentality. With the right person in charge, we'd have dropped our cups of tea and bowler hats and started throwing jews on the pyre ourselves.



Besides, that whole theory smacks of inverse Nazism- the Germans are different to everyone else, but this time in a negative way. The Germans were responsible, but German is not the same as Nazi, and Germans *now* are not the same as Germans *then*. The obvious logical next step of Goldhagen's theory is that Germans *still* possess this centuries old predilection for slaughtering Jews, and therefore we all need to keep watching 'em 'cos they'll try it again soon...



Jim.


--- On Sat, 13/6/09, Darren A. Peace <dpeace at bigfoot.com> wrote:


From: Darren A. Peace <dpeace at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia
To: "'A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)'" <gathering at misera.net>
Date: Saturday, 13 June, 2009, 4:34 PM

One of the most thought-provoking books I’ve read on the subject is



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_Willing_Executioners



The thesis is as simplistic as regarding all Americans as war-mongering zealots, but there are interesting consequences of the argument.



Also, I found



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_(film)



excellent, in a fairly superficial and moralistic way, as an examination of the ethics, and the tendency to blinker oneself to horror if you’re not directly targeted.



Darren

Hungerford, UK



From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net] On Behalf Of Jim Harper
Sent: 13 June 2009 1:46 AM
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia



I suspect that any attempt to either blame 'capitalists' (rather vague term, there) for Nazi atrocities or to identify the German upper classes with the Nazis isn't going to get terribly far. As a previous poster pointed out, vast numbers of wealthy Germans fled when the election results were in- this would be unlikely to happen if (a) they all supported the Nazis, or (b) were 'slipping them into power'. I have to say, I have German relations who would probably be quite shocked to hear that their moderately wealthy grandparents were responsible for 'slipping' the Nazis into government...



Jim.

--- On Sat, 13/6/09, GREG SLAWSON <gregslawson at msn.com> wrote:


From: GREG SLAWSON <gregslawson at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia
To: "gathering" <gathering at misera.net>
Date: Saturday, 13 June, 2009, 12:38 AM

I don't think the previous poster was saying anti-Semitism popped up from nowhere. It had to be built over time. But the main point to me is that the capitalists were willing to use Nazism to save their asses, even if it meant exterminating millions (liberal democracy is the 1st choice for capitalists--it's neater and easier to manage--but fascism is the norm when they can't rule the other way.



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From: bettedillinger at live.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:28:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

WTF? Anyone with any disposible income whatsoever was fleeing Nazi Germany once they got into power. There was a dearth in the professional classes after Hitler took power. The "volk" were forced to stay behind. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule but please. Re: anti semitism, Mein Kampf, outlining the process by which Hitler would exterminate the Jewish population was published in 1929 (? not sure on exact year). If that wasn't a warning shot, I don't know what is one. Anti Semitism just didn't pop up with Hitler's crew anyway.



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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:14:19 -0700
From: saulomar1 at yahoo.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

I also read that at the start, that the people were not as anti-semitic as people think they were,

but that the anti-semitism didn't really go bonkers until some years later. Kinda like here with the

whole anti-immigrant thing. Kinda.


... ... ... ... ... ...


[looking at the current state of things..]



'Save me...

save me from Tomorrow..

I don't want to sail in this Ship Of Fools...'








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From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen.l at live.com>
To: "gathering at misera.net" <gathering at misera.net>
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:05:07 AM
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

i believe a lot let intellectualism rule over humanism and thereby bought into the master race myth



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From: gregslawson at msn.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

Yes, I've read that too-that the Nazis had quite a big base of support among doctors, teachers, and groups like that. Any one read the book about the Nazi doctors?



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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:15:02 -0700
From: saulomar1 at yahoo.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

> The Nazis were ushered into power



Curious fact about those guys that, contrary to what alot of people think of extremist political types, them there Nazis were, on average, about 30yrs. of age, white, male, with a college degree and of the professional class.







... ... ... ... ... ...


[looking at the current state of things..]



'Save me...

save me from Tomorrow..

I don't want to sail in this Ship Of Fools...'








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From: GREG SLAWSON <gregslawson at msn.com>
To: gathering <gathering at misera.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:31:31 AM
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

Good points Bette. I think that the business class NEEDED the Nazis to survive (and they got what they needed--a fusion of corporations w/the government, complete social control, lowered wages, blaming the victim, etc). The Nazis were ushered into power w/the cooperation of the "liberal" social democratic parties. THe big issue is not so much how many voted for Hitler, but that the rich class slipped them into power to serve their economic/political needs. If the German Communist Party had actually tried to lead armed opposition to the Nazis (which they didn't), history might have been different.



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From: bettedillinger at live.com
To: gathering at misera.net
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:45:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

The "people did not start listening" en masse, as we are led to believe. Hitler won about 32% of the "popular vote".....correct? he then, like so many fascists, offed the opposition. I mean, his relationship with the Catholic Church is a case in point. Used until he could abuse. I just am being a stickler about this because everyone thinks that Hitler got into power with this sweeping majority after the Weimar Republic. World War I, and its economic repercussions, also seem to be the elements that "paved the way for Hitler". But it is an unfortunate fallacy that so many want to blame the rise of Hitler on the "debauchery of the Weimar Republic".

Bette



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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:32:57 +0100
From: ade at the-lab.zetnet.co.uk
To: gathering at misera.net
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

Yeah man (sorry, I'm listening to Big Youth), the advanced democracy that was the Weimar republic pathed the way for the Nazis. Things were fine until the economy started going tits. Then more people started listening to what uncle Adolf had to say...

-----Original Message-----
From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]On Behalf Of sade1
Sent: 10 June 2009 23:27
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

> ..Germany was fucked after WWI....



Didn't Germany go thru some level of success/prosperity during the Weimar period before the Nazis came up?




... ... ... ... ... ...


[looking at the current state of things..]



'Save me...

save me from Tomorrow..

I don't want to sail in this Ship Of Fools...'








------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brendan <bq at soundgardener.co.nz>
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!) <gathering at misera.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:01:50 AM
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia

I can't see how the circumstances are similar. Germany was fucked after
WWI, they also were forced to take the blame for what was essentially a
european arms race that culminated in a war, and pay large reparations
(although I don't think they ever paid much). The UK is in a much
different position now....isn't it?

>
> i wouldn't be so sure , the nazi's came to power under similar
> cicumstances and generally the masses can be quite fickle and easily
> swayed
>
>> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:36:33 +1200
>> From: bq at soundgardener.co.nz
>> To: gathering at misera.net
>> Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia
>>
>> A proportion of that vote would include those who aren't so much racist,
>> rather they reject the current immigration policies but haven't thought
>> through the issues and are ignorant of who they are voting for...I think
>> as the world population increases, economic woes continue on and wealth
>> moves from west to east, we'll be seeing more of this kinda stuff. And
>> the
>> fasists will attempt to capitalise on it. Long term they can always be
>> relied on to shoot themselves in the foot though.
>>
>> >
>> > that 1 in 17 shows you how many '' closet racists '' there are in this
>> > country
>> >
>> > a fact most of the country is in self denial over
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:57:54 +0100
>> > From: MichaelHead at HBOSplc.com
>> > To: gathering at misera.net
>> > Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > it's an interesting premise "defend democracy" when roughly 1 person
>> in 17
>> > voted for BNP in the EU elections as opposed to say Benn's Labour who
>> > polled roughly 1 in 7. surely the act of protesting against this
>> party's
>> > policies is anti-democratic?
>> > what concerns me more, is why so many people (nearly 1 million) are
>> that
>> > disaffected that they would vote this outright fascist party in the
>> first
>> > place.
>> > we're a little lucky the proportional representation system used in
>> these
>> > elections runs at regional rather than national level, otherwise
>> they'd
>> > have had 4 of the 72 elected as opposed to 2.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: gathering-bounces at misera.net
>> [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
>> > On Behalf Of folk devil
>> > Sent: 09 June 2009 18:27
>> > To: gathering at misera.net
>> > Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) Singing rule Britannia
>> >
>> >
>> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8091605.stm
>> >
>> > "Members of Unite Against Fascism, a new group supported by trade
>> unions
>> > and MPs from all parties, including Tory leader David Cameron, and
>> veteran
>> > left wing campaigner Tony Benn, said they wanted to "defend democracy"
>> > against what they regard as the "fascist" and "racist" policies of the
>> > BNP.
>> > One told the crowd his message for Mr Griffin was: "Wherever you go in
>> > this country we will make sure you are welcomed by demonstrations."
>> >
>> > Glad it's happening, but this could also promote the BNP.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
>> >
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > HBOS plc, Registered in Scotland No. SC218813. Registered Office: The
>> > Mound, Edinburgh EH1 1YZ. HBOS plc is a holding company, subsidiaries
>> of
>> > which are authorised and regulated by the Financial Services
>> Authority.
>> >
>> > ==========================================================================_________________________________________________________________
>> > Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free.
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>> > Gathering mailing list
>> > Gathering at misera.net
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>>
>>
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