[kj] FW: jaz date change 4 spoken word

[The Exorcist]

I did not mean to put words in your mouth if it came across as such.
I was questioning your statement as I understood it. I was not comparing
the virtue of hippies to a greedy fuckwit. I have 
massive issues with one and simply
don't care about the others as long as they don't impact me.

Before people were "wage" slaves were they not slaves to anything else?
Wage is the current way of life for modern society to put food on the table
and obtain other amenities.

I would not associate all of youth crime/ falling 
education standards directly to
wage slaves. There are factors such as society, 
The dumbing down of tests, Unions
trying to destroy private schools that do better 
than they do, the victimization mentality
that oozes through our subculture and rears its 
ugly head everywhere and states "No
you can't do any better! We the gov't will take 
care of you forever", affirmative action,
racial quotas, denying funding for kids in bad 
schools who want to go to better schools and
study (thank you Obama), the focus on all sorts 
of crap other than most basic skills that
a kid needs (Reading, Writing, Math.... Now we 
have "Reform Math/New-New Math also known as
fuzzy math. Please check this link. 
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_3_7_03mc.html), the new
progressive schools, the admittance of uneducated 
people into college who could never
get in and have them graduate with some claptrap 
degree, and a hell of lot more.

---Snip---
"Feb. 1 -- Colorado College, in an effort to 
attract minority and disadvantaged students, is 
dumping those stodgy old college-admission exams 
in favor of a novel Lego-building test for a 
handful of applicants. . . .The tests are seen as 
a way to help colleges maintain racial diversity 
even if racial preferences are eventually banned."
---Snip---

When kids are not taught to respect anyone, can 
get away with everything, it's always someone else's fault,
progressive schools with no rules, no curriculum.

I assure you this is NOT the fault of capitalism. 
Whose is it? Well, let's not get into this right now.

You said "Attacking the Republicans...that's 
critical thinking / the scientific method. 
Constantly re-evaluating values and attacking the status quo"

The republicans are anything BUT the status quo 
right now. Critical thinking includes
all aspects of an issue. When you single out one 
group of people that is NOT critical.

Yes I did see you ask if there were any lefty loons. This raises 2 points.

1- Why is it that it's not common knowledge 
(unlike the righties that get attacked everywhere)
Not enough airtime? Maybe. (however between, PBS, 
CBS,CNN, NBC, BBC, Reuters, AP, Media Matters, print media, TV in general
I think they do quite well) Check out this link. 
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/20086.html

Could it be they are not touted as such because 
whatever they say is considered
acceptable as long as they tow the party line and 
go after everyone who disagrees?

2. In your post (which cam after the question of 
the demmie loons) you specifically pointed out
Republicans after listing a slew of things that 
irk you. I don't see that as critical thinking.

Re: Care less about the republican party history
Well that's a shame as we learn a lot from 
history and you'd see how the early ideals still stand true despite fuckups.
The rampant monetary greed and raping happens from both parties.
Look at the campaign coffers.

Re: Sneered as an evil doer
You mean the way people refer to republicans and conservatives?
(Or today, anyone who dares say anything bad about Obama and gets called out
and shredded by left wing media?)

I don't sneer as them as evil doers. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.
Unlike Greg Slawson I feel no need to CRUSH THE OPPOSITION.
I actually enjoyed some of the works of Trumbo 
though I doubt I'd get along with him in person,
and till today am amazed about the whole Hollywood blacklist.

You say they (communists) want to live in a less "competitive manner."
So far, historically speaking it hasn't happened. 
Wherever it arose it led to limitations of individuality, anger and hostility.

Communism in its past and current form would have no competition simply because
they would try to get rid of anyone who opposes 
them. As our current resident communist
has so succinctly stated.

Re:Cult of personality? One word. Obama
Who was the last Republican "Cult of Personality"?

Re:The need to be sexy, popular, cool, trendy? One word. Hollywood

If you look at most of the fashionista's out there they tend to lean more
left than right. Attributing that to purely to 
Republicans is sheer silliness or
self delusion.

The distaste of the great disparage is understandable. However the notion
that everyone deserves everything equally regardless of what they do does not
make sense to me. It would simply lead to laziness and mediocrity. If you and
I, both healthy individuals share a room and I 
drag in 10 buckets and you drag in 5
are you entitled to my water when you finish yours?

The abuse or taking advantage of those working for you should have checks
and balances. However that in itself has a limit. 
If the figurehead/creator would not
have come up with his/her idea none that work for 
him/her would ever have a job.
They benefit from his/her creativity. Because 
they work for him/her does that mean
that they are entitled to an equal share? I don't 
think so. You might disagree with this
and that is your prerogative. This is just my 
personal opinion and I speak for no one
other than myself.

And even in this issues arise. Look at Unions 
they were created to protect the worker.
Now where is it today? It's a powerful lobby that 
looks only after itself and doesn't give a shit
about anyone else. They exert political pressure, 
they are corrupt, they intimidate and now they
want to enforce "Card Check". Let's not forget the Mafia influence in unions.

Matters are not simple cut and dry.

If you look at the products created in communist 
societies, they are rarely long lasting
works of marvels.

You have every right to disassociate/opt out from 
anything you choose. However if you
go along singularly, well that ain't communism. 
If you have a communist country you
wouldn't have ads for material objects, it'd just 
be replaced with propaganda for something
else.

I'm done now. If you choose to continue this 
thread let's combine the 2 emails into a singular thread
if possible. I apologize to any gatherers that 
might be annoyed/mad/angry with the long posts.

At 03:47 AM 3/19/2009, Brendan wrote:

>Firstly, it's not fair to put words into someone's mouth. I never said

>work was bad (?!), I do my fair share and always have. I'm not a hippie

>sitting around a camp site singing songs...but so what if I was? Who is

>better, who does more good / less harm...Bernie Madoff or Cheech n Chong,

>or your average street bum? Your average hippie doesn't rip people off to

>the tune of $50billion. I contend the average jobless hippie pot-head does

>less harm than your average corporate lawyer.

>

>My point is that most ppl are essentially wage slaves, because of

>statistics like the following - the top 20% of the population owns 74% of

>the wealth and the bottom 20% of the population controls 2%. It's

>exploitation. I think that both parents being forced to work by such low

>wages (often more than 40 hrs each) is excessive and damaging to families

>and society (youth crime / falling education standards anyone?)

>

>The topic of increasing automation is one that I won't get too heavily

>into but bear in mind that more and more jobs are being automated, if it

>wasn't for the service sector there would be huge unemployment, and it

>won't be long before the service sector gets more automated, as machines

>become exponentially more capable. I work in IT support - nothing a

>machine won't be able to do in x years. That's great from my point of

>view...progress.

>

>Attacking the Republicans...that's critical thinking / the scientific

>method. Constantlly re-evaluating values and attacking the status quo. And

>Republicans could do a lot in the eyes of people like me if they got rid

>of the Bill O'Reillys and Rush Limbaughs. You'll recall I specifically

>asked if there were any Dems as annoying as that lot, which I bet there

>are (I just don't think they get the same airtime). Also that I said I

>disagree with the system itself...I don't believe there's a huge amount of

>difference between the two parties at the end of the day. They both stand

>for corporations over people in my mind...only because of the few who

>cream the profits from the corporations.

>

>I could care less about the history of the Republican party, I'm talking now.

>

>I wouldn't want to live under a communist regime, I watched a doco about

>it the other day, and, at least in the form I've seen it, it doesn't

>appeal. What gets on my goat however is how you're sneered at as some kind

>of evil-doer for merely mentioning the word, even though most people who

>espouse such ideas simply want to live in a more co-operative and less

>competitive manner.

>

>Also, there's no way it's as simple as opting out of buying products,

>sending a message to the producers that way. They target kids, they use

>extremely well crafted advertising whose influence is hard to resist (I

>specifically mentioned in my other email how they use psychologists in a

>cynical way to craft their adverts), the cult of personality is used to

>associate famous ppl with products, they use sex, guilt, nationalism,

>propaganda, elitism, everything they can to get you to buy. It's hard not

>to buy into it, they do their job very well. Everyone wants to be popular,

>sexy, entertained, cool, dynamic, healthy, responsible etc etc. But you're

>not gonna get it by buying over-priced jeans or cigarettes, whatever they

>want you to think.

>

> >From a big picture perspective, it's obscene that some people have 20 cars

>and mansions etc, on the backs of the people who work in the companies

>they head, when other people can't afford the basics like healthcare. They

>are the ones who perpetuate the myth that the system has to work that way,

>that no one will be motivated to work in a system without money and

>profit. What a load of crap.

>

>I don't begrudge anyone the right to live like that, by all means, however

>I'd like to have the opportunity to opt out, to live in a society with a

>fraction of the advertising, where goods were produced with quality and

>longevity in mind (ALL goods), there wasn't the huge wastage involved in

>producing inferior goods that were specifically planned to fail well

>before they need to to keep the consumer consuming, where new products are

>constantly being churned out and people are made to feel inferior for not

>having them, where individuals are allowed to amass fleets of cars and

>houses while others are left without the basics...that's just foul to me.

>Justifying it by saying that creating jobs and a wealthy country helps

>everyone...I don't buy that at all.

>

> > Altruism is as much a personal ideology (if not

> > more) than a political ideology.

> > As a personal ideal I can see the merits. As a

> > political, it becomes an entirely different creature.

> >

> > You attack republicans yet it was the Republican

> > party that fought to get rid of slavery.

> > They were the first to ban slavery despite the Democrats opposition.

> > The republicans passed the First Civil Rights act in 1875.

> >

> > Here is some info for you to chew on.

> > ----------------------------------------------

> > "The Civil Rights Act (1875) was introduced to

> > Congress by Charles Sumner and Benjamin Butler in

> > 1870 but did not become law until 1st March,

> > 1875. It promised that all persons, regardless of

> > race, color, or previous condition, was entitled

> > to full and equal employment of accommodation in

> > "inns, public conveyances on land or water,

> > theaters, and other places of public amusement."

> >

> > In 1883 the Supreme Court declared the act as

> > unconstitutional and asserted that Congress did

> > not have the power to regulate the conduct and transactions of

> > individuals."

> >

> > Many of the provisions that were later passed in

> > the 1960's were taken from the original act.

> > And this was only accomplished after overcoming a Democrat filibuster.

> > Here are the yea-nea

> > Democratic Party: 152-96   (61%-39%)

> > Republican Party: 138-34   (80%-20%)

> >

> > The Senate version:

> > Democratic Party: 46-21   (69%-31%)

> > Republican Party: 27-6   (82%-18%)

> >

> > The Senate version, voted on by the House:

> > Democratic Party: 153-91   (63%-37%)

> > Republican Party: 136-35   (80%-20%)

> >

> > Republicans led the fight for women’s rights, and

> > most suffragists were Republicans. In fact, Susan

> > B. Anthony bragged about how, after voting

> > (illegally) in 1872, she had voted a straight

> > Republican ticket. The suffragists included two

> > African-American women who were also co-founders

> > of the NAACP: Ida Wells and Mary Terrell, Republicans, both of them.

> >

> > Republican Senator Aaron Sargent wrote the

> > women’s suffrage amendment in 1878,though it

> > would not be passed by Congress until Republicans

> > again won control of both houses 40 years later.

> > It was in 1916 that the first woman was elected

> > to the U.S. House of Representatives, Republican

> > Jeannette Rankin. The first woman mayor was

> > elected in 1926, the Honorable Bertha Landes of

> > Seattle, another Republican.

> >

> > The KKK was from the Democrat wing and attacked

> > many republicans (not to mention all the others they bore hatred for).

> >

> > It was the party that made it possible for Obama to be where he is today.

> > ----------------------------------------------

> >

> > I hate gaudy shopping malls, I hate annoying ads

> > and I hate lots of shit out there. I can't stand

> > the radio for the most part either.

> > I lament everyday the loss of the vibe that NYC

> > once had and is now a yuppified condo filled blob

> > of land. I don't own ANY designer

> > brand name shirts, pants, socks, belts etc...

> >

> > "All the millions of ppl. trudging to work everyday to a job they hate."

> > Ahhhhh, so there should be no work? Would it be

> > ok to say at least they HAVE jobs and some sort of income?

> > Do we have to enjoy everything in life? Are we

> > all just gonna sit around in dance and song and advance, grow healthier,

> > more educated, watch as food miraculously pops

> > into our mouths while we lose the need for malaria shots?

> > In the US one of the biggest issues of the poor

> > and under privileged is OBESITY. Imagine that!

> >

> > Is that cloud of doom you see because of shitty

> > jobs or is it becomes lives today have nothing to strive for and are

> > empty and meaningless. Are all these faces only in "Capitalist countries"?

> >

> > I think my mother who came from Russia would have

> > quite a different opinion than you and would probably be able to give

> > you some insight how it was to live as a Jew

> > under the Russian communist rule. (in whatever form you care to call it)

> >

> > "Political lobbying by vested interests": That

> > applies to all parties throughout time. If you think this is a trade

> > unique to

> > Capitalism, you are sadly very mistaken.

> >

> > "People think they are better than other ppl.

> > based on income bracket": Once again, that is not

> > a Capitalist creation, nor a Republican

> > nor a Democrat, nor Communist, nor Marxist, nor

> > Trostskyite, nor Bolshevik.... I hope you get the point by now.

> >

> > "Plastic pieces of shit": I hate that as well and

> > I am quite picky with what I purchase. You get

> > what you pay for. If you don't like it

> > don't buy it. If you don't buy it they won't make

> > it (unless the Gov't/Nancy Pelosi/Obama forces

> > the car manufacturers to make more green

> > cars that no one seems to be buying). Did you

> > ever think that the little plastic piece of shit

> > can actually bring joy to a poor family who can't

> > afford anything quite grandiose?

> >

> > You might say "ahhh those filthy Capitalist pigs,

> > they're just brainwashing the kids with all those

> > toys and garbage." the poor parent might

> > see it as "geee, my kids friend has an Ipod and

> > can listen to music all the time but I can't

> > afford to get one for my kid, well at least I can get

> > my child some other sort of player."

> >

> > Excused me, no one is being forced to do

> > anything. At least not in the US. What exactly IS

> > a soulful job? What exactly are we

> > supposed to be seeing/doing? You've yet to describe that.

> >

> > Capitalism took a small country and turned it

> > into a megapower faster than any other nation.

> > Everything has it's faults and everything

> > can be exploited. You seem to not grasp this idea

> > and just focus on your bloodlust for "Capitalism". There ought to be

> > checks and

> > balances with proper implementation, when it's

> > not there... People get corrupt. It's everywhere buddy.

> >

> > Another little heads up, Most conservative

> > republicans (and Democrats) were against the bail

> > out, still are against the bailout.

> > All the masses of cash flowing is coming from

> > Senior Obama. I love it how people are all

> > shouting bloody murder about the 165 Million "Bonus"

> > that AIG is giving out while that is a SPIT in

> > the bucket compared to how our Gov't just totally ass raped us!

> >

> > Other than trying to catch up with religion in

> > the amount of people killed and tortured in the

> > name of "ideals" and having books banned,

> > censored, and people exiled. I can't quite bring

> > to mind any great additions to society that have come from Marxist ideals.

> >

> > Next time you feel like saying the word

> > "Republican" with venom I hope the short (but

> > lengthy for an Email) quick recap of the

> > "Republicans" comes to mind.

> >

> >

> > At 11:44 PM 3/18/2009, Brendan Quinn wrote:

> >>Most sane people wouldn’t claim that altruism is

> >>a trait exclusive to one political ideology, I

> >>wouldn’t bother continuing a conversation with

> >>anyone that did ­ what’s the point?

> >>

> >>I just dunno how anyone could defend modern

> >>capitalism ­ gaudy shopping malls, whole

> >>neighbourhoods full of soulless advertising

> >>that’s impossible to avoid (yes, I’ve been to

> >>LA

some parts of it gave me the total shits),

> >>cynical advertising steered by psychologists,

> >>aimed at kids, selling unnatural chemical

> >>concoctions as ‘food’, all the millions of

> >>people trudging to work every day at a job they

> >>hate (I’m so glad I don’t have to take the bus

> >>in to work in the mornings anymore because the

> >>cloud of doom amongst the condemned is

> >>depressing

), political (monetary) lobbying by

> >>powerful vested interests, people thinking they

> >>are better than other people because of their

> >>income bracket, planned obsolescence, plastic

> >>pieces of shit that don’t last 3 months,

> >>landfill full of heavy metals

Republicans


> >>

> >>People being FORCED to help out is NOT acceptable.

> >>

> >>People being forced to work 40 hours a week at

> >>soulless jobs isn’t a great state of affairs

> >>either, being forced to put up with pollution,

> >>rampant destruction of natural resources,

> >>getting one vote every 4 years that means

> >>practically nothing in the scheme of things,

> >>getting ripped off by corporations and then

> >>expected to pay to bail them out

etc etc.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>----------

> > _______________________________________________

> > Gathering mailing list

> > Gathering at misera.net

> > http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering

> >

>

>

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