[kj] FW: jaz date change 4 spoken word

[Brendan]

I totally agree.


>

> I agree that machines can and will do more and more. The bad side is that

> the companies are doing this to eliminate jobs and make quicker profit

> (bad for us). Under a worker-run, moneyless society (you know where I'm

> going here) machines could be used to make life better, b/c the people

> whose jobs are eliminated could then do other useful work (more nurses,

> people fixing infrastructure, more education, etc etc) instead of just

> becoming unemployed

>

>

>

> From: bq at soundgardener.co.nz

> To: gathering at misera.net

> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:35:28 +1100

> Subject: Re: [kj] FW: jaz date change 4 spoken word

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> The more people there were, the more effort was needed to keep things

> running.

>

> I disagree, it’s only a question of scale. Our productivity has been

> increasing for a long time and I believe is still increasing (broadband,

> computers, advanced machinery, automation, unified communications etc).

> More people require more support infrastructure only in terms of numbers,

> not necessarily in terms of that % of the population required to support

> the rest

I believe the opposite is true.

>

> Some history:

>

> Back approx 10 000 years ago we invented / discovered agriculture. While

> this required at least twice the effort of work as compared to hunting /

> gathering, in order to sustain life, it resulted in a population explosion

> because of increased surety of food production and storage of grains etc.

> This increase in reliability and storage of food, and the fact that people

> were less nomadic (and irrigation played a part too I believe) resulted in

> the arrival of cities and city-states

(Jericho and Ur being a couple of

> the earliest examples). The critical mass of people in a city and the

> relative surplus of, and storability of food, despite the increased labour

> cost of producing it, enabled division of labour and specialisation. So

> all of a sudden you could afford people whose only ‘job’ it was to create

> written records, tend the sick, track the movements of the planets etc etc

> (and probably ticket hawkers and parking wardens and the like but I

> digress

) Science and technical craft progressed, and productivity has

> been going up ever since. Even in 1950 the average office user was far

> less efficient, without the widely available use of computers, email,

> photocopiers, fax, broadband, video conferencing, cellphones etc. And my

> point IS – while the population increases, with commensurate increases in

> productivity and automation, there is a decrease in the amount of people

> required to accomplish any given task. I suppose you have to account for

> increased regulation, complexity etc, but I believe that productivity and

> automation has outstripped that by far. My conclusion being

a crapload of

> the jobs we do now are POINTLESS.

>

> The manufacturing industry has been hugely automated, from its labour

> intensive origins, so has agriculture (something like 2-3% of the

> population in many western countries is all that’s needed to run farms,

> down drastically since early last century), and statistically, if it

> wasn’t for the explosion in growth of the service industry, unemployment

> levels would be way high, or unions would have forced companies to use

> human vs machine labour or something. I work in the service industry in a

> technical field, but I believe there’s people vastly smarter than me who

> will one day create machines that are capable of doing what I do. Or

> machines that will create machines that are capable of doing what I do. I

> mean, I started in IT on a helpdesk helping users connect with dial-up

> modems. That job, all the millions of people who do it (now a lot of it

> has moved to broadband routers but similar task), will be evaporated as

> soon as someone solves the technical problem(s) of creating a modem /

> router that you can plug in and actually works without Joe user needing to

> do more than make one phone call, once. And everything on up the

> chain

systems administrators will be cut in half when most servers are

> simply a process running on a virtualised box in a data centre and your

> average 10-user company doesn’t feel the need to run their own email

> server etc, they just plug all their PCs in to the net, log in to their

> domain and off they go

ubiquitous super-high-speed broadband, cloud

> computing, virtualisation, unified communications, voice over IP

it all

> spells automation to me. A lot of the rest of the jobs will be shipped out

> to India, Manilla etc.

>

> Re the weight thing, I stick to my guns

.I’ve been training for over 20

> years and have a fair amount of technical and practical knowledge about

> health and the body’s adaptation to exercise, you’re preaching to the

> choir in terms of the benefits of exercise. I guarantee you though if you

> took two groups of overweight, unfit individuals with unhealthy

> lifestyles, and you exercised one lot yet had no ability to influence

> their diet, and I controlled the diets of the others with no ability to

> influence their exercise, that I’d lose them more weight. And if you gave

> them to me for 12 weeks and allowed me to train and control their diets

> that I’d lose them more fat & gain more muscle AND increase their athletic

> performance more. And enjoy the whole process more too, with less

> injuries.

>

> Those biggest loser shows are fucking daft, on so many levels. That amount

> of exercise and calorie restriction is excessive, you’re more likely to

> maintain a healthy lifestyle if it doesn’t feel like living in a

> concentration camp (!)

1500 calories a day diets for men and 1200 for the

> women. That’d drive me bonkers. I lose weight regularly, slowly, but

> consistently, on 2500 calories a day. I wonder how many injuries those

> people sustain going from no exercise to what they have them do, on joints

> that aren’t used to even 10 mins of walking, carrying 300lbs plus. It

> doesn’t send a healthy message at all.

>

>

>

>

> From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]

> On Behalf Of The Exorcist

> Sent: Friday, 20 March 2009 11:32

> To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)

> Subject: Re: [kj] FW: jaz date change 4 spoken word

>

> Re: Soulful job

>

> While there are people that do work in fields they enjoy. Many do not.

> In order to obtain something you generally need effort and input. In the

> earlier times

> we all hunted and farmed. As our

> families/tribes/clans/states/countries/nations expanded

> there was a need for more room, food, shelter and other basic necessities.

> The more people

> there were, the more effort was needed to keep things running. As humans

> evolved there was

> need for better ideas and technologies to help us keep up to pace with our

> burdens. Some had it

> easier, some had it harder. Some were able to work in the

> political/scientific/cultural fields other

> worked in the manual labor field. (White collar/ Blue collar)

>

> Our inherent nature is one of survival and we do what we can in order for

> us (as individuals)

> and our families to survive to he best of our capabilities.

> (Well most. And some unfortunately become psychotic/raving lunatics)

> A poor man/woman had to go beg for food and money no matter how demeaning

> he/she might find

> it in order to provide. Is it something they looked forward to? I doubt

> it. Is it worse then having a shitass job?

> In my mind, yes. Nevertheless, it was done.

>

> Re: Automation/Technology

> Let's take a writer for example (without going to far back). The writer

> used to spend time writing

> on pen and paper. It took him quite a while to finish his publication. We

> then had the advent of the typewriter.

> Suddenly, the amount of time it took took him to write was cut in half (if

> not more). A while after we had the

> word processor/PC and the time to write was yet once again shortened.

>

> Would one say to the writer. "Hey You! Stop writing. You've done enough!

> You used to publish one book a

> year and now you need to do 3? You have more free time now, why are you

> doing this?"

>

> With the advent of computer technology, (bigger, faster) work tasks can be

> done much faster.

> On the other side however we found more uses and applications for the PC

> and ventured out

> into more fields. The fact that something can be done in a shorter amount

> of time does not mean

> (as I see it) that someone just needs to stop doing things. Life is a

> pursuit, a quest, a goal, an achievement.

> Humans are not automatons (well, not yet, though society seems to be

> pulling that way) and constantly

> search for something (whatever that maybe). Singers write new songs,

> Writers write new books, Inventors

> invent new inventions (that one sounded weird).

>

> Re: Obesity

> There is big, fat, overweight and obese. Obese is already far past the

> borderline of unhealthy.

> There are of course MANY factors to Obesity. It does not change the fact

> that it is unhealthy.

> Nor does it change the fact that exercise helps.

>

> Exercise has been shown and is recommended to people who suffer from

> stress,

> depression, anxiety.

> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression-and-exercise/MH00043

>

> People deal with stress in many ways and it has many side effects.

> (I always have had a hard time sleeping. Mind is always active and

> I've been told to try and relax a bit. Though I definitely don't have the

> over-eating issue)

>

> Exercise is also important for people with health issues. For example -

> Diabetees.

> http://www.cdc.gov/DIABETES/faq/exercise.htm

>

> Look at the little kids today that outweigh average teens and plenty of

> adults.

> There are many reasons for it, be it anxiety, depression, not coping with

> school work, peer abuse,

> physical ailments, a shitty diet of only fast food because the parents are

> to lazy to cook

> or can only afford Mcdonalds/Wendys/BK.

>

> Exercise is beneficial there as well. Whatever the cause, Exercise has

> it's purposes and

> DOES help with weight issues and many other physical and mental aspects of

> an individual as well.

>

> BTW.... Before you reply, kindly let me finish the reply to the previous

> letter so we can keep it in one thread. :)

>

>

>

>

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>

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