[kj] (OT) The Religion of Peace, Love and Understanding

[jpwhkj at aol.com]

It's certainly the case - as you outline below - that science is more geared towards a peer-review approach to seeking truth than religion!  However, I disagree that religious faith *by definition* excludes doubt.  Some faiths, especially those at the fundamentalist end of the spectrum, are indeed very intolerant of the idea of doubt; but a lot of religious people are able to encompass both a strong faith and doubt.  And at least some religions are explicit in accepting that doubt and faith go hand in hand - which, for something as unknowable as what religion deals with, seems eminently sensible.

Jamie






-----Original Message-----
From: Brendan <bq at soundgardener.co.nz>
To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!) <gathering at misera.net>
Sent: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:48
Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) The Religion of Peace, Love and Understanding


He spent his whole - brilliant - career at loggerheads with Christians,
eing stymied in his efforts to teach in a field he's an expert and
ioneer in. He's certainly been very successful in developing the field of
volutionary biology, whether that's recognised 100 years in the future,
nd his theories still current, who knows. But you can imagine how you'd
eel under the circumstances. It's an unfair fight when one side
religion) is allowed to criticise the other but society won't brook any
ounter argument. One of his main aims, and he's been relatively
uccessful so far, is to alter that situation.
Another thing - one of the dictates of the Simonyi Professorship for the
ublic Understanding of Science (which was set up specifically with him in
ind as the first holder) is to make a particular impact in one area of
he public understanding of science. I think he's done a great job.
He recounts a situation in The Root of All Evil documentary, of the
dmiration his class felt for a professor who had just been publicly
roven wrong about a theory he'd held for his whole career, who shook the
and of the visiting professor who'd proven him wrong and thanked him.
hat's the difference between fundamentalism and evidence based science.
The idea that he doesn't admit a single shred of doubt about science is
ust plain wrong.

>

>>>Dawkins is a fanatic because he doesn't admit a single shred of

>>> self-doubtThat's not correct. I'm going from memory here but the thrust

>>> of Dawkins' argument summed up at the beginning of the God Delusion is

>>> that God "is not the most plausable" cause of all things including life

>>> and so why should we give religionists any special priviledges....Also

>>> in the GD, Dawkins describes himself NOT as a 'Strong Atheist' but a

>>> medium one (there's a more precise phrase for it).This is not a

>>> fanatic. He has doubts, though small.


 Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:29:48 +0000
 From: jimharper666 at yahoo.co.uk
 To: gathering at misera.net
 Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) The Religion of Peace, Love and Understanding

 I'm sure Dawkins has a million and one convenient and pithy quotes about
 how right he is and why he's better than religious fanatics (which do all
 seem to revolve around the same method: "I'm right, so I'm not a
 fanatic!"). I'm already acquainted with Dawkins' beliefs, and they weren't
 convincing firsthand, so it's probably not worth throwing any more around.

 I'm also not even remotely religious, and heavily opposed to Christianity.
 What wories me is not the nature of someone's beliefs, but their
 attitudes. Dawkins is a fanatic because he doesn't admit a single shred of
 self-doubt. As far as he's concerned, he has satisfactorily proven his
 beliefs to be 100% accurate, and everyone who doesn't share his opinion is
 at best wrong and at worst actively delusion.

 That makes him a fanatic. That makes him just like any other fanatic, and
 entitled to be labelled as such. Like all fanatics, of course, he
 maintains he isn't one (because he's right, of course).

 jim.

 --- On Fri, 7/5/10, Brendan <bq at soundgardener.co.nz> wrote:






 “It’s all too easy to mistake passion that can change its mind for
 fundamentalism, which never will.”

 “If I sound intemperate, it’s only because of the weird convention, almost
 universally accepted, that religious faith is uniquely privileged“

 “Blasphemy is a victimless crime”

 Dawkins


 From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
 On Behalf Of Jim Harper
 Sent: Friday, 7 May 2010 10:23 PM
 To: A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)
 Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) The Religion of Peace, Love and Understanding






 In other words:



 "Being a fanatic is only a bad thing if you're wrong. And I'm right."



 Thanks.



 The fallback position of the man who knows he can't prove his opinions:
 "But I'm right!"



 Jim.

 --- On Fri, 7/5/10, Brendan <bq at soundgardener.co.nz> wrote:



 Isn't virulent atheism just as much an issue as virulent Christian
 Fundamentalism?

 No. Nothing like it. I’ve done both.

 “When two points of view are expressed with equal force, the truth does
 not necessarily lie midway between them. It is possible for one side to be
 simply wrong. And that justifies passion on the other side”

 Dawkins 1:18



 From: gathering-bounces at misera.net [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net]
 On Behalf Of Bette Dillinger
 Sent: Friday, 7 May 2010 9:02 AM
 To: gathering at misera.net
 Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) The Religion of Peace, Love and Understanding

 Really, your post is one of the few moderate, thoughtful posts I have read
 about Christianity on the Web!  I think the concepts such as "original
 sin" etc, are metaphors.  Taken out of context you can alter them to suit
 your personal level of need for control and submission or dominance.  But
 all books on spirituality ultimately have one theme.  That's why the
 "Founding Fathers" were deists, though of course I have views on that as
 well.

 What Cayce reading have you done?




 From: humanhybrid666 at gmail.com
 Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:22:02 +1200
 To: gathering at misera.net
 Subject: Re: [kj] (OT) The Religion of Peace, Love and Understanding

 well, i've been rather anti-christian these last few years, very much
 so...altho, to me, divinity is everywhere...



 these last few weeks tho, i've been listening to 'the politically
 incorrect guide to the bible' which has opened my eyes to the fact that
 the christian mindset has given us many good things that society has
 benefited from... like the age of the magnacarta, and the attitudes of the
 american founding fathers who penned the declaration of independence ... i
 see how easy it is to slam the religious nutters, hardly a fair fight, but
 credit where its due, it has also had some positive effects on our
 unraveling culture.   (not that peace cant be achieved without the
 bible..)



 there was one bit saying that those cultures that had large christian
 populations had more personal and political freedoms than those cultures
 with smaller christian based populations.. broke it down with numbers and
 stuff too...



 to each their own, as long as the mind and the conscience are used...





 i am very interested in the initial cause/concept of the twisted biblical
 story of original sin... i have my own idea's, influenced by some edgar
 cayce readings,  and i do think that it does refer to some actual relevant
 happening, but, who can know??  doesn't stop me pondering...









 =)









 "due to a lack of trained trumpeters, the end of the world has been
 postponed indefinitely..."




 Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
 inbox. Learn more.

 -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

 _______________________________________________
 Gathering mailing list
 Gathering at misera.net
 http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering

 -----Inline Attachment Follows-----


 _______________________________________________
 Gathering mailing list
 Gathering at misera.net
 http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering


 _________________________________________________________________
 http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/
 _______________________________________________
 Gathering mailing list
 Gathering at misera.net
 http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering


______________________________________________
athering mailing list
athering at misera.net
ttp://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/gathering

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://four.pairlist.net/pipermail/gathering/attachments/20100508/c4496bac/attachment.htm>