[kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!

Tue Apr 19 17:24:07 EDT 2016

Most excellent and well done

On Apr 19, 2016, at 2:15 PM, Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net<mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net>> wrote:

ACHTUNG!!!

If you guys have been following the exploits of our intrepid dub as he tracks down the location of the Killing Joke Wall at my behest, herewith an IMPORTANT UPDATE...

http://vassifer.blogs.com/alexinnyc/2016/04/back-again-to-the-bogside-revenge-of-the-killing-joke-wall.html

Thanks for all your work, dub, and thanks to everyone else for their kind word...

Cheers,
Alex in NYC

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Williamson
Sent: Apr 16, 2016 2:53 AM
To: Nick Scott , Gathering Mailing List
Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!

I did this the other day but it said that it was being moderated.  I'll try again by attaching it rather than inserting it ........

________________________________
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:28:08 +0100
From: npscott at blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:npscott at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: gathering at misera.net<mailto:gathering at misera.net>
Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!

I concur, now we just need a picture from 2016 of the wall from the correct angle sent to Colesy to morph into something odd or sinister.  Look forward to reading your blog once finished.
On 15 April 2016 at 19:01 Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net<mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net>> wrote:

Agreed -- once again, outstanding work, Paul. I'm planning on condensing all of this on a single blog post. Watch for that soon.

Alex in NYC
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Perry <65snoopy at gmail.com<mailto:65snoopy at gmail.com>>
Sent: Apr 15, 2016 3:52 AM
To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"<gathering at misera.net<mailto:gathering at misera.net>>
Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!

This is the greatest thing I've ever read on the Gathering. I'd like to call you Sir and give you a medal. Fantastic investigative work! Plus, I've never seen the inside sleeve photo before. Superb.

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Apr 2016, at 16:13, Paul <dubecho at gmail.com<mailto:dubecho at gmail.com>> wrote:

Greetings Gatherers,

Just a couple of corrections and a bonus [Winking face]

My spelling was never the best (or my grammar for that matter lol) and spell check tends not to catch place names spelled wrong, especially in Irish, but Creggan, is spelled with a double g (my excuse and I'm sticking to it).
Next mistake. Bloody Sunday occurred on the 30th of January, 1972. Not August as I stated previously. August though was always associated with unrest in Derry, as the Apprentice Boys parades take place then, hence it was in my mind.
July 10-12th was also another couple of days unrest was a certainty, all across the North. As the Orange Lodges, would march and the bonfires were lit.
Last mistake, I hope. I'm relearning my left and right again. The City Cabs office, from the running soldiers picture<https://i.imgur.com/9EIxjph.jpg>, is of course on the bottom right corner, not left as stated. Here Circled in blue<https://i.imgur.com/dLu9b9d.jpg>.

Bonus: As I was looking through 100s of pictures, I came across the inner sleeve too, here you go<https://i.imgur.com/Qc7AWww.jpg>. [Smiling face with Sunglasses]

With only having Google's and Bing's, satellite imagery to work with, getting the angles and perspective is next to impossible, but you get the idea.
The inner sleeve shot, was taken literally a stone's throw away from the front cover shot<http://i.imgur.com/N8HPJj2.jpg> location (pun intended [Face with stuck-out tongue and winking eye] ). In fact if you look closely at the original shot, you can see a gang of stone throwers in the shadows across the road, to the left of the first lad running away from the wall..

In the next set of pictures, I have shown where I am guessing Don McCullin, stood to take the pictures. Again due to the limitations of the satellite pictures, angles are not 100% correct.
Also an old school photography camera, would have had a lot of settings adjusted, i.e. shutter speed, film speed, and aperture. Lens size to would be a factor. With it adjusted, depth of field, would play tricks with the eye. Also remember, the row of houses, behind the wall were not built then and the top 6 courses of blocks and cap stones, were not there. So he would have had a clearer line of sight. The photos may well have been cropped too. Here it is<http://i.imgur.com/xBsdFI9.jpg> and another<http://i.imgur.com/V5h3sGm.jpg>. Google Maps<https://www.google.ie/maps/%4054.9961333%2c-7.320551%2c223a%2c20y%2c303.75h%2c69.67t/data=%213m1%211e3> & Bing Maps<http://binged.it/1qrpOWX>, should anyone want to try guess better than I did.

And finally, while looking at more of his photos, there is one that has a sequence of 3 and was calling out to be made a GIF file. So I did and here it is<http://i.imgur.com/PmsvOZG.gif>.

So until I am up in Derry City, this June, or my friend sends me a picture taken at the correct angle, that's all from me on the matter.

As you were,

Paul aka dub 🤘

On 13 April 2016 at 22:10, Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net<mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net>> wrote:

Fucking AMAZING work, Paul -- truly staggering.

Stay tuned.

Alex in NYC

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul
Sent: Apr 13, 2016 4:32 PM
To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside ...Case Solved!

I'm not done yet ...lol

I think I have it cracked. With the help of a friend in Derry, Google Maps and perseverance! [Smiling face with Sunglasses]

I was not able to let it go, so I asked a lad I know, who is an amature photograpeher and lives in Derry, where he thought it might be. He immediately said "that's up at Little Diamond". We already knew it was in the Bogside<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogside> area and this is indeed in that area, on the way up to the Cregan and the topography of the area matches. It's a small stretch of road at the top of William Street, where the soldiers running picture was taken.
I found this old picture online<http://i.imgur.com/SiZxO5B.jpg> and was able to focus on the top right hand corner<http://i.imgur.com/PF4Txvf.png>, bear in mind this picture is from a year later and taken as part of the inquiry into Bloody Sunday<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29>, which happened August '72, but still shows a wasteland area. This turns out to be the old sorting office. So today that area looks like this<http://i.imgur.com/uPJrjx1.jpg> (very bottom on left is where City Cabs is from other picture) and a little closer like this<http://i.imgur.com/wGLMWKx.jpg>. I'm not sure when the swimming pool was built, but it could be what was the old sorting office building, which was burnt out.

So fellow Gatherers, without further adieu, I present to you, what will be from this day henceforth, known as The KILLING JOKE wall!<http://i.imgur.com/OMHGpP0.jpg> or what's left of it ...lol Maybe someone with better PhotoShop skills than I, can do an overlay of the Killing Joke, album cover on to the picture, but to my mind it all checks out.

I shall still refrain from giving my own opinion on The Troubles, as it's a pointless exercise, that just stirs up old grievances and emotions. Not something that will go away, but let's just be thankful for things as they are. There is peace in Ireland, for now and long may it last.

I too enjoyed the look back and to be honest was amazed at the amount of photographs and videos online documenting a time in history, that is still hard to believe happened in our lifetime. I'll be up that way in June, as part of this<http://www.ventureoffshorecup.com/>, so will try get a snap at the angle of the original and maybe get a gang of lads to jump off it lol I've also asked the mate, to take a picture too, so hopefully will have that soon, but in meantime Google Maps<https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Westland+St%2c+Londonderry%2c+Derry+BT48+9EU%2c+UK/%4054.9979733%2c-7.3274572%2c3a%2c15y%2c358.8h%2c91.08t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211sNeOR_V2z-xp6GrppxRayGg%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m2%213m1%211s0x485fe179982200c1:0xa72a669f8224d865>, will have to do.

If you've not seen the rest of Don McCullin's, photos from Derry in '71, try here<https://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/artists-a-z/m/artist/don-mccullin/object/the-bogside-londonderry-northern-ireland-ar01187>, were picture 16/17, confirms the pictures location. Also you might like Clive Limpkin's<http://www.ucd.ie/photoconflict/gallery/northernireland-thebattleofbogside/>, pictures from around the sametime. One of which ended up being a mural on a gable down by the Free Derry Wall<https://www.google.ie/maps/%4054.9958896%2c-7.3269076%2c3a%2c75y%2c183.2h%2c89.59t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211sowP1NQUYExn2NCCU0k8jHg%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%216m1%211e1>. Which incidentally looked like this<http://i.imgur.com/jkLtLKb.jpg> circa '71 (and this<http://i.imgur.com/kfsxITn.jpg>). Some other blurb on them here<http://clivelimpkin.com/tag/londonderry/>. The movie '71<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2614684/> too, gives a good look at the north at that time and a different perspective, albeit fiction.

Anyway hope this helps you Alex, and rest of Gatherers enjoyed it. I'm not going to bother put this on Facebook, but if anyone else wants too, by all means do. Look forward to reading your blog too Alex [Thumbs up sign]

On 12 April 2016 at 18:27, Brendan Quinn <bq at soundgardener.co.nz<mailto:bq at soundgardener.co.nz>> wrote:

Cheers Paul, enjoyed the stroll back in time. The seventies are receding back into the past at quite a clip now innit, esp. with the passing of Bowie and Lemmy, amongst others.

I’d heave a heavy sigh, but the old lungs aren’t up to it ;)

From: Gathering [mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net<mailto:gathering-bounces at misera.net>] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Monday, 11 April 2016 7:39 a.m.
To: Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net<mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net>>; A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!) <gathering at misera.net<mailto:gathering at misera.net>>
Subject: Re: [kj] Back to the Bogside

Link to pic https://i.imgur.com/9EIxjph.jpg (To big to embed in email on the list)

Not "the" picture, but from same series and quiet possibly same riot, is this McCullin, photo.

Just out of boredom, I was able to pinpoint it to William St, Derry. The building the soldiers are running past, is gone, just a market stall there now.

The open door is to a company that was called City Radio Cabs and as can be seen in the picture, had a phone number 4466. The company is still there just at the back of where the stall is in the lower picture and called City Cabs now, but still has the same last 4 digits in their number. The A D that can be seen, is from Bradley & McLaughlin undertakers, who still trade on the other corner of the street.

As you can see all the buildings are relatively new, possibly 80s.

So again, to try hunt down the exact position of the album cover photo, would be next to impossible, unless you had been there as such.

I do hope you have more luck though, if you follow it up Alex.

On 8 April 2016 at 23:57, Paul <dubecho at gmail.com<mailto:dubecho at gmail.com>> wrote:

On further examination of the picture, the wall itself, looks like footings or foundations for a building.

You can see what looks like bent rebars, on the tops. So would be a substantial building or most likely a block of low flats, 3 or 4 storeys.

A lot of these were built in the 70s, because in this particular part of the city, large amounts of houses were burnt out for one reason or another, will leave that aspect to another day : )  Interesting and long history.

Also, the amount of building materials, particularly roof ridge tiles, on the ground, would lead one to think it was a building site anyway.

The only other identifying parts to buildings are the shutters on the gable of one of the houses. This is possibly a shop, but many such shops in that part of the Bogside, but again may well be long gone. Or may not even be a shutter at all and just a corrugated zinc panel/sheets, they would have been used to shore up burnt out houses. I've looked at other pictures taken by the photographer at around the same time and although features recognisable, they are just other parts of the same area and long since changed.

So sorry, I can be of no help. Best bet would be ask the man Don McCullin, himself. He is 80 and lives in Somerset. He still exhibits, so may well be contactable, a chance to use your journalistic sleuthing skills : )

Only other thing I can think of is ask one of the Undertones, a band formed in that very place, not to many years after : )

On 8 April 2016 at 22:51, Paul <dubecho at gmail.com<mailto:dubecho at gmail.com>> wrote:

Bogside, Derry, County Derry : ) It comes from the Irish for a line of oak trees, Doire.

Will have a look later and see if anything that stands out and might be able to use Google maps, but to be honest, I would not hold out much hope, as the original picture was from sometime in the 70s, when the troubles were still ongoing, but Derry, as with other cities in the north, has had a huge amount of work done in building and regeneration of areas hit hard, and the Bogside was one place that did get it bad unfortunately. Looks like it was in one of the housing estates (projects) too and them streets are identical for huge parts of the city.

Nice full size of original http://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/AR/AR01193_10.jpg

On 8 April 2016 at 22:39, Alex Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net<mailto:vassifer at earthlink.net>> wrote:

Been attempting to compose a longer piece on my silly blog about Mike Coles' iconic artwork for the fist Killing Joke album, and it got me thinking ..... does that very spot (the wall depicted in the shot).... still exist today?

As I understand it (and please jump in if you know more), the original photograph by revered war photographer Don McCullin was snapped circa 1971 in an area known as The Bogside in Londonderry, Northern Ireland. It depicts a "gang of boys" fleeing a CS gas attack .... as one would.

I cannot help wondering if that wall is still standing, moreover if anyone has tracked it down to do a sort "then and now" juxtaposition.

I first spotted the original McCullin photo in a huge book several years back in a photo book store in SoHo, NY (sadly long gone ... now a lingerie emporium) and letting out an audible gasp. I remember being disappointed that it did not, in fact, feature the words KILLING JOKE scrawled menacingly across the brickface.

Are there any Irish Gatherers who might know more?

-Alex in NYC

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