[LEN-E] Yahoo Boohoo (LONG)

[Ron Koster]

The LEN-E discussion list began on Yahoo!Groups 
(http://groups.yahoo.com), with its first "welcome message" sent out 
(by myself) on August 14th, 2002, in conjunction with the launch of 
the Leni's Rising Star website (http://www.riefenstahl.org), 
effectively in honour and celebration of Leni Riefenstahl's 100th 
birthday (on August 22nd of that year).

*** FI-YAHOO-SCO! ***

About four-and-a-half years -- and 2500+ list posts -- later (with 
list membership having hovered quite steadily at about 100 members 
since shortly after its inception), on January 23rd, 2007, it was 
brought to my attention (as list owner) that messages sent to the 
list were being rejected by the Yahoo server, and that the info page 
for the list had also apparently "disappeared", and that it had been 
like that for a few days. Since it was not unusual for there to be a 
lull in list posts for several days (sometimes several weeks), this 
was the first knowledge that I had of this dilemma, and needless to 
say I immediately began efforts to find out what had happened.

*** WRITING TO YAHOO ***

Well, it would seem that Yahoo doesn't like to hear about problems 
such as this, because nowhere on their site could I find any form or 
any email address which seemed appropriate for the specific issue at 
hand. However, my initial presumption (and fear) over what had 
occurred was that someone had somehow compromised my Yahoo account 
and maliciously deleted the list, and for lack of anywhere else to 
contact Yahoo I submitted my concerns to their "Report Abuse" form 
(at http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/abuse/cgi_abuse/). A couple of 
hours (and no response) later, I also sent an additional 
report/inquiry via email to Yahoo's security department 
(mailto:security at yahoo-inc.com).

By the end of the day, I received my first response from Yahoo (in 
reply to the latter email to their security department) -- an 
"auto-generated response" (from 
mailto:account-security at cc.yahoo-inc.com) which basically gave me 
instructions on how to change my password. Needless to say, I wrote 
them back and told them that their response had nothing to do with 
what I was reporting.

*** PHONING YAHOO ***

By the next morning, I still hadn't heard anything from them, and so 
I decided to phone them. Again, nowhere on the Yahoo site is there 
any phone number listed, and so I looked them up on Switchboard 
(http://www.switchboard.com). I called the number listed there -- 
(408) 349-3315 -- only to discover that the number doesn't exist.

Okay, now I was really starting to think that Yahoo simply just 
doesn't like to hear about any problems from anyone. However, I knew 
that surely valid contact info must be connected to their domain name 
registration, and so off I went to do a WHOIS 
(http://www.allwhois.com) on the "yahoo.com" domain. I called the 
number listed there -- (408) 349-3300 -- where I received a rather 
cool response from the operator who answered, telling me that I was 
calling the wrong place and that I should be calling Yahoo Customer 
Care at (866) 562-7219.

So I call Customer Care, where one is given two options, one for 
"billing" (for Yahoo paying customers) and another for other issues, 
but if you choose the latter then you only get a recording telling 
you to reach them via the website (yeah, right!). So I called back, 
instead opted for the first option, explained my problem to the guy, 
who then told me to contact Customer Care by email. The email address 
he gave me was egroups-feedback at yahoo-inc.com (which I repeated back 
to him twice, just to be sure I got it right), but when I sent off my 
next email to that address, it bounced! And so I took a chance, 
changed the address from "@yahoo-inc.com" to "@cc.yahoo-inc.com" (as 
it was in the first response I received from Yahoo's security 
department), and that address -- 
mailto:egroups-feedback at cc.yahoo-inc.com -- seemed to go through (at 
least, it didn't bounce).

*** YAHOO RESPONDS ***

Two days later, I finally received some sort of genuine response from Yahoo:

	Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:48:46 -0800
	To: Ron Koster <ron at psymon.com>
	Subject: Re: Compromise of my Yahoo!Groups account
	(KMM86226243V39879L0KM)
	From: Yahoo! Groups <egroups-feedback at cc.yahoo-inc.com>

	Hello Ron,

	Thank you for writing to Yahoo! Groups.

	You can review Yahoo!'s Terms of Service at:

	http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms

	and Groups Guidelines at:

	http://groups.yahoo.com/local/guidelines.html

	Yahoo! Groups, in its sole discretion, may terminate or
	remove any content, Group or your Yahoo! ID immediately
	and without notice if (a) Yahoo! believes that you have
	acted inconsistently with the spirit or the letter of the
	Yahoo! Terms of Service or the Yahoo! Groups Guidelines,
	or (b) Yahoo! believes you have violated or tried to violate
	the rights of others. Please help us keep Yahoo! Groups
	an enjoyable and positive experience. If you see a Group
	or content that violates our rules, please let us know by
	contacting us via our help pages.

	http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/

	Thank you again for contacting Yahoo! Customer Care.

	Regards,

	Derek

	Yahoo! Customer Care

This, of course, is utterly ridiculous (as anyone amongst our entire 
previous list membership -- and anyone else who knows me -- would 
know). I wrote Yahoo back, told them with great emphasis that I was 
thoroughly unaware of any instance that I may have violated any of 
their guidelines or terms of service, and insisted that they explain 
to me what it was, exactly, that they were accusing me of.

Two days later (again), I receive another response:

	Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:54:37 -0800
	To: Ron Koster <ron at psymon.com>
	Subject: Re: Compromise of my Yahoo!Groups account
	(KMM43904172V28218L0KM)
	From: Yahoo! Groups <egroups-guidelines at cc.yahoo-inc.com>

	Dear Ron,

	Thank you for writing to Yahoo! Groups.

	Yahoo! may, in appropriate circumstances and in its sole
	discretion, terminate Groups that appear to have violated
	the Yahoo! Terms of Service (TOS). In some cases, Groups
	may be deleted by an Owner or Moderator. You may want
	to contact the owner or moderator(s) regarding your concern.

	Please feel free to visit the Yahoo! Terms of Service at:

	http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

	Thank you again for contacting Yahoo! Customer Care.

	Regards,

	Harold Quincy

Stupid answer. I wrote them back again, told them quite vehemently 
that they were not responding to my question, and demanded once again 
that they tell me *exactly* what it was that I was being accused of, 
and why my group had been deleted.

As of this date, I have still not received any sort of legitimate 
explanation from Yahoo. I started to wonder, though: was this the 
only time that Yahoo has done something like this, completely 
deleting a list (and it's entire archives) without any warning or 
explanation (initially, and ultimately without any sort of 
satisfactory explanation whatsoever), or have they done this to 
others as well? I did a search for "yahoogroups deleted", and 
discovered these anecdotes...

	Rebuilding a community of practice
	http://www.anecdote.com.au/archives/2006/02/rebuilding_a_co_1.html
	EXCERPT: "Last month actKM faced a disaster. On the
	15th January YahooGroups deleted the actKM group.
	It's a long story and not really the point of this post but
	it amounted to a member complaining to Yahoo that
	another member infringed their trademark. So instead
	of deleting the offending posts, Yahoo deleted the whole
	group."

	What Happened to ScifiNoir at Yahoogroups FAQ?
	http://www.visitfloripa.com/index.htm
	EXCERPT: "On Friday morning (April 29, 2005), my
	browser start page (my yahoo) would not load and the
	yahoo login page would not accept my password that
	I have had since 1998. I figured it was just a glitch.
	Then, a few subscribers notified me that they could
	not post. The board's site was also gone!"

	My Incredimail Groups
	http://www.sleepingangel.com/graphics_imgroups.htm
	EXCERPT: "In brief, Yahoo deleted ALL 13 of my groups
	without notice and without an explanation on July 31st, 2006,
	I had no choice but move (read: restart) my groups elsewhere."

So what happened with the LEN-E list, *really*? Well, I really don't 
know, but I can only presume that somebody must have filed some sort 
of malicious complaint against either the list (as a whole) or 
against me (as list owner), but whatever the case, Yahoo refuses to 
tell me what, in fact, it *really* was that caused them to delete my 
group -- in fact, it was not only the LEN-E list which they deleted, 
but they deleted *all* the groups that my Yahoo ID was associated 
with (whether as owner, co-moderator, or simply as a list member). 
Thus, whatever the "attack" was, it would certainly appear to have 
been directed specifically at me.

Interesting... and enlightening. I know for a fact that I did not 
violate any of Yahoo's guidelines or terms of service, nor did I 
"violate or try to violate the rights of others" in any way. Indeed, 
if anything I have always been a very strong (if not outspoken) 
advocate *for* non-discrimination, equal rights, etc.! But at this 
point I don't feel that I need to justify my *good* behaviour -- if 
anything, it's Yahoo that should be explaining themselves. Indeed, I 
essentially told them as much in my last reply to them, where I 
pointed out that in their presumptous, disrespectful attitude toward 
lists/list owners, they themselves were effectively violating, quite 
explicitely, their own guidelines and their own terms of service -- 
and, thus, if Yahoo should be deleting anything/anyone, they should 
be deleting themselves. ;)

(Hmm... reminds me of an old Star Trek episode that I recall...) ;)

*** WHODUNNIT? ***

Well, apart from Yahoo doing it to me (directly -- if not, indeed, to 
us all directly), I still have no idea *why* they did what they did, 
that is, what the *real* reason was, *specifically*. However, just a 
few weeks ago I did get the following submission through the contact 
form on my site...

	Date: 31 Dec 2006 01:22:54 -0000
	From: [SJKarpov19 at aol.com]
	To: contact at riefenstahl.org
	Subject: SUBMISSION: Leni's Rising Star

	realname: Sam Karpov

	email: SJKarpov19 at aol.com

	location: Not Germany

	comments: Your propoganda still continues. For you to
	say that Leni could not have imagined what Hitler was
	going to do is a copout. She knew what Hitler was doing
	to Jews in Germany long before World War 2 started.
	She used gypsies in her propoganda films and then knew
	they would be killed. She filmed the "Triumph of the Will"
	which was staged and that film is what led the Germans
	to fully embrace Hitler. We will never forget what she did.
	She has NEVER apologized. All she does is make excuses.
	I am only sorry she lived to be 102 while people she helped
	kill never made it to midlife. Your apologetic propoganda for
	this NAZI is despicable. She got away with murder and she
	go into the history books as a an apologist for mass murder.
	She has NEVER apologized or admitted what she did.
	Make she rot in hell.

Now, I should state here that I am *not* in any way accusing Sammy 
here of having been responsible for complaining to Yahoo, which then 
resulted in the list being deleted, but based on his rather venomous 
behaviour (not only in the above, but elsewhere that one can discover 
on the 'net by searching his name), it certainly wouldn't surprise me 
-- not to mention that it's the only overt attack extended toward me 
(in any forum or context) in the longest time.

Regardless of whether or not Mr Karpov was responsible for what 
happened to the old list, if only as a little aside I can't help but 
feel that just as he thinks that Leni should live (and die) with the 
things she did in her life, he too can be immortalized for his 
beliefs, and his words. ;)

*** STARTING OVER ***

Well, so long to Yahoo!Groups -- at this point I'm not so sad about 
that, really, but what is truly, truly a shame is the loss of 4-1/2 
years of list archives. More than losing Yahoo's so-called "service", 
the lost of the archives is what is really, really terrible. :`(```

But if there's anything good to come of all this, it's the re-birth 
of this list through my own site (http://www.riefenstahl.org), that 
is, through the same folks that my site is hosted on. What this means 
is that I/we no longer have to rely on a separate, third-party to 
provide this service, we can follow our own guidelines and "terms of 
service" (which, if we were to actually write them up, would no doubt 
look hardly any different than Yahoo's -- with the only overt 
difference being that we *really* mean them and *really* live by 
them!), and unless my hosting company goes belly-up some day, then 
there's no reason that this list (and its archives) shouldn't 
continue ad infinitum.

Oh, and another bonus is that we no longer have to put up with those 
stupid ads at the bottom of all the messages any more, either -- 
"Yahoo!", indeed! ;)

And so, here we are, happily starting all over, a-fresh and anew, 
with our old list members slowly but surely trickling back in. :)

Any questions, class? Anyone have to go to the bathroom? You're 
excused... we'll be here when you get back!

Ron ;)

Woof?... http://www.Psymon.com
Ach, du Leni!... http://www.Riefenstahl.org
Hmm... http://www.Imaginary-Friend.ca