From ron at psymon.com Sat Mar 1 05:31:04 2008 From: ron at psymon.com (Ron Koster) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 05:31:04 -0500 Subject: [LEN-E] Nosferatu (The Ultimate Two-Disc Edition) In-Reply-To: <47C84636.8070802@freenet.de> References: <378529137@web.de> <47C6EA5A.2000809@freenet.de> <20080229161526.C54BF2BD09@mailwash40.pair.com> <47C84636.8070802@freenet.de> Message-ID: <20080301103110.A9CCF2BD25@mailwash40.pair.com> At 06:51 PM 2/29/2008 +0100, Thomas K?hler wrote: >Ouiii, what a flurry of mails crossing:-) I know! Things have really picked up here since we stopped talking about Leni. ;) (Incidentally, I now have a vision of Slim Pickens at the end of Dr. Strangelove, riding on top of the atomic bomb as it's dropped and yelling "Oooooooweeeeeee" -- except doing so with a French accent) ;D >Yes, Murnau Stiftung are indeed doing a brand >new restoration of "Nibelungen", it's been in >the works for several years now, and apparently will be finished this year. Well, *that's* very interesting! As I mentioned before, I already thought that the Kino version already *was* the "definitive" version, and I was already incredibly impressed with the restoration there, so it's almost hard to imagine what more they could do -- but I guess we'll certainly see! >Perhaps Robert Flaherty's "Nanook of the North"? >That's the 'grandfather' of all these films >(made in 1922, and filmed even earlier). Oh, yes, of course, but I guess I was thinking of purely fictional, more "adventure"-type films (as opposed to documentary or whatever). >whereas with Trenker, well: Trenker is in the forefront :-) And he wouldn't have it any other way. ;) >German has changed much more in the last 100 >years than English did, and sometimes these old >titles are not only typographically interesting, >but also languagewise. So one of the reasons why >I like silents so much in general is that they >work like a time-machine into an older culture, >and the older way of expressing things is a part of the fun. Exactly. I'm not in a position to judge the differences between the present-day German and that German of the 1920s (or so), if only because I don't know the language very well, but I do know what you mean (to perhaps a smaller degree) because I've noticed the same sort of the thing in American early films (the use of completely out-dated -- sometimes entirely "foreign" sounding -- expressions, etc.). In fact, apart from the language itself, even the *typography* -- or, rather the use of punctuation, etc. -- is quite different (although not necessarily wrong, even by today's grammatical standards, but just "different")! > >"Weaker" in what sense? Do you mean the > plastic that the discs are made out of? > >No no, the plastic is the same. They are weaker >in quality for money: often worse image, less >extras etc. That doesn't go for all discs, but >if you compare the Criterion Edition of >Fellini's "La Strada" to the German disc of that >same film, you'll see very quickly what I mean. Well, I don't know if that's a European vs. American thing, but rather a manufacturer vs. manufacturer thing. After all, that's certainly true of all the Masters of Cinema series, which in my experience are *far* superior to anything put out here in North America -- indeed, in my own experience I would say that Masters of Cinema (Europe) and Criterion (North America) are both pretty well equal in the superior quality of their DVDs, with the only real difference being which films they choose to put out (for example, MoC put out "Diary of a Lost Girl", whereas Criterion put out "Pandora's Box"). Other than those two companies, though, every other company (whether American or European) is, well, not-quite-so-superior. I can't think of any other DVD-makers that put out products as nice as theirs, anyway. Ron :? From easternwindow at freenet.de Sat Mar 1 06:25:49 2008 From: easternwindow at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Thomas_K=F6hler?=) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:25:49 +0100 Subject: [LEN-E] Nosferatu (The Ultimate Two-Disc Edition) In-Reply-To: <20080301103110.A9CCF2BD25@mailwash40.pair.com> References: <378529137@web.de> <47C6EA5A.2000809@freenet.de> <20080229161526.C54BF2BD09@mailwash40.pair.com> <47C84636.8070802@freenet.de> <20080301103110.A9CCF2BD25@mailwash40.pair.com> Message-ID: <47C93D3D.5010501@freenet.de> > I know! Things have really picked up here since we stopped talking about Leni. ;) I'm not so sure whether we actually really stopped talking about Leni. All these discussions about silent films I guess are relevant. Hitherto we have tried to assess her position with respect to politics, propaganda, culture etc., but I have the strong feeling that you can't really see the specialness (and sometimes not so very specialness) of both Leni's and Fanck's films if you don't have a good knowledge of what was going on in the world of cinema around the time. And I don't just mean obvious influences like Eisenstein or so. So babble on! :-) > Well, I don't know if that's a European vs. American thing, but rather a manufacturer vs. manufacturer thing. Okay, I would agree with that. But even if I look at major companies like Warner Brothers: their US versions of many of their dvd releases of old films (and I mean truly old, like from the 30s or 40s) often are double-discs with loads of extras, whereas the European versions often are only single discs with little or no extras. And a lot of old films from major companies simply don't get released in Europe at all because they think there's no market for them. > indeed, in my own experience I would say that Masters of Cinema (Europe) and Criterion (North America) are both pretty well equal in the superior quality of their DVDs, with the only real difference being which films they choose to put out (for example, MoC put out "Diary of a Lost Girl", whereas Criterion put out "Pandora's Box"). Agreed of course, these are the two best companies in the world. You might add the BFI to the list, but only for their releases since about 2005 or so. In Germany there is also now Edition Filmmuseum who also put out rare silent films among other stuff, but they are terribly slow in releasing them. But their editions are all very good, and they are not afraid to put out things even if the source material is in bad condition (in many cases, this can't be helped if there's just one remaining print of a film). That Criterion released "Pandora" at all surprised me, they have very few silent films in their catalogue, and generally seem to shy back from them. MoC, on the other hand, only releases very few films made after 1960 (unless they are Japanese). So these two labels seem very much to complement each other. Best Thomas From ron at psymon.com Sat Mar 1 07:34:48 2008 From: ron at psymon.com (Ron Koster) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 07:34:48 -0500 Subject: [LEN-E] Nosferatu (The Ultimate Two-Disc Edition) In-Reply-To: <47C93D3D.5010501@freenet.de> References: <378529137@web.de> <47C6EA5A.2000809@freenet.de> <20080229161526.C54BF2BD09@mailwash40.pair.com> <47C84636.8070802@freenet.de> <20080301103110.A9CCF2BD25@mailwash40.pair.com> <47C93D3D.5010501@freenet.de> Message-ID: <20080301123542.6D6C02BD1A@mailwash40.pair.com> At 12:25 PM 3/1/2008 +0100, Thomas K?hler wrote: > > I know! Things have really picked up here > since we stopped talking about Leni. ;) > >I'm not so sure whether we actually really stopped talking about Leni. Oh, hey, I was just joking! ;) >All these discussions about silent films I guess >are relevant. Hitherto we have tried to assess >her position with respect to politics, >propaganda, culture etc., but I have the strong >feeling that you can't really see the >specialness (and sometimes not so very >specialness) of both Leni's and Fanck's films if >you don't have a good knowledge of what was >going on in the world of cinema around the time. Oh, I totally, totally agree! Indeed, I can honestly say that one of the things that's helped me to understand Leni's/Fanck's films is watching/learning about films by *other* directors! One might even go so far as to say that it's virtually a prerequisite to have at least some knowledge/awareness of other films/directors from that period in order to have any sort of accurate understanding of those two particular directors' work. >if I look at major companies like Warner >Brothers: their US versions of many of their dvd >releases of old films (and I mean truly old, >like from the 30s or 40s) often are double-discs with loads of extras, Maltese Falcon, Casablanca, etc... yeah, I can see that, but that might also be due (in however big or small a part) just to the sheer *volume* of films that have come out of the US (Hollywood), compared to virtually every other nation (if not every and all other nations put together!). And then add to that the rather blatant "personality trait" of US corporations towards self (US) promotion and stuff -- well, it's all about business, and money (one can charge more for a "bigger" DVD edition than a smaller, cheaper one), perhaps more than it is about education and art. As a Canadian myself, I'm only a hop away from the US (where much of our TV programming comes from, for example), so I may not be quite as objective about American culture as you Europeans are -- but still, Canada does have a far more "humble" culture (and self-perception) than the US does, so I can say the above with some level of objectivity. Perhaps, in a psychological sense, that's part of the issue. Americans (i.e. the USA) have a really strong level of self-esteem, and certainly aren't afraid to show it -- that's not necessarily a bad thing, of course, but in comparison it might leave other nations/peoples *thinking* that they're own artistic productions just don't stand a chance in competing with "the great giant". Or, alternatively, from a completely opposite perspective, it could instead perhaps just be a reflection of humility (in a very positive way, I mean) of other nations, in comparison to the US egocentricity. I don't know -- I'm just babbling, actually, just thinking out-loud. Don't mind me if that all sounds ridiculous, because I just made it all up just now, as I was writing this. ;) >You might add the BFI to the list, but only for >their releases since about 2005 or so. In >Germany there is also now Edition Filmmuseum who >also put out rare silent films among other >stuff, but they are terribly slow in releasing them. Oh, I haven't checked out their catalogues -- that's something I can do this morning (if I can find an idle moment). >That Criterion released "Pandora" at all >surprised me, they have very few silent films in >their catalogue, and generally seem to shy back from them. Oh, one other silent film that they do have, and that you have to -- just *have* to! -- check out (if you haven't seen it) is their edition of the 1928 film, "The Passion of Joan of Arc"... http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=62 I never even heard of this film until it aired on that Turner Classic Movies channel last summer, and I can honestly say that -- in my estimation, at least -- it's by far one of the greatest silent films ever made. And, on top of that, it has a modern musical score that was written specifically for it (also available separately on CD) which is equally as astounding and certainly stands up on its own (without the film). In fact, you can listen to a "sampling" of this score on the amazon site... http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Einhorn-Henk-van-Heijnsbergen/dp/B0000029NX Together, though -- this extraordinary film in combination with the beautiful score -- this edition of that film is truly a phenomenal experience. Do check it out, if you haven't seen it (it's well worth the price, even with overseas shipping) -- and no, I don't work for Criterion, this is truly just my honest, personal opinion! Ron ;) From luc.deneulin at skynet.be Sat Mar 1 10:00:08 2008 From: luc.deneulin at skynet.be (Luc Deneulin) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 16:00:08 +0100 Subject: [LEN-E] Nosferatu (The Ultimate Two-Disc Edition) In-Reply-To: <47C84636.8070802@freenet.de> References: <378529137@web.de> <47C6EA5A.2000809@freenet.de> <20080229161526.C54BF2BD09@mailwash40.pair.com> <47C84636.8070802@freenet.de> Message-ID: <1B17C162-C7BA-4C63-B27D-E79446949FD8@skynet.be> Nanook of the North is a great film, Moanna by Flaherty is as big! It was considered the first "documentary, well it was the first time, in the late twenties that the word was used (in an English newspaper). At that time a documentaruy meant that scenes could be played or directed as long as the spirit was preserved. Man of Aran was one of Riefenstahl's favorite films. When Murnau and Flaherty worked together, you get the combination of a genious of fiction and one of documentary, in this great film Tabu. I think the German film from 1910-1928 is full of masterpieces, also the so-called street films (Asphalt, Die freudlose Gasse etc) and to know that so many films are also lost!!! On 29 Feb 2008, at 18:51, Thomas K?hler wrote: > Ouiii, what a flurry of mails crossing:-) Hope I can sort it out > somehow... > > Yes, Murnau Stiftung are indeed doing a brand new restoration of > "Nibelungen", it's been in the works for several years now, and > apparently will be finished this year. As I said, they will restore > the tintings, and they also found some more material not included in > the older restoration. That's why they have to re-record the > soundtrack as well, because the old recording wouldn't fit with the > newly found scenes included. And yes, the Kino disc is the older > restoration, and thus not the definitive one (I hope the new one > will be...). > From easternwindow at freenet.de Sun Mar 2 07:57:28 2008 From: easternwindow at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Thomas_K=F6hler?=) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:57:28 +0100 Subject: [LEN-E] Nosferatu (The Ultimate Two-Disc Edition) In-Reply-To: <20080301123542.6D6C02BD1A@mailwash40.pair.com> References: <378529137@web.de> <47C6EA5A.2000809@freenet.de> <20080229161526.C54BF2BD09@mailwash40.pair.com> <47C84636.8070802@freenet.de> <20080301103110.A9CCF2BD25@mailwash40.pair.com> <47C93D3D.5010501@freenet.de> <20080301123542.6D6C02BD1A@mailwash40.pair.com> Message-ID: <47CAA438.2010406@freenet.de> Truly interesting, I never knew that "Man of Aran" was one of Leni's favourite films, but it is very obvious to see why. The fight of man vs nature, the heroic and at the same time archaic/mystical approach that the film has would certainly endear it to her. One could ask, though, whether Flaherty, precisely by taking this approach, does not lessen the documentary character of the film and makes it fictional to a degree (in a way similar to the perennial question whether "Triumph" and "Olympia" are documentaries or not). Luc, you claimed that "Tabu" is just that combination of the genius of fiction and documentary, i.e Murnau and Flaherty. But according to the texts and the commentary on the new MoC disc, Flaherty more or less dropped out of the conception and making of that film at a very early stage, because he didn't get along with Murnau very well, precisely because Flaherty wasn't happy with the fictionalization and romantification that he saw at work in Murnau's approach. All the more curious, then, that Flaherty in my view did precisely the same in "Aran". Ron, I quite liked your 'outsider's view' on the US, and of course a lot of these special editions are about business and money. But in this case, it at least has a nice side effect for those of us interested in the backgrounds of the films. The extras on WB's discs of 40's/50's Musicals have spared me the effort to buy a book on Minnelli, for instance.. > Oh, one other silent film that they do have, and that you have to -- just *have* to! -- check out (if you haven't seen it) is their edition of the 1928 film, "The Passion of Joan of Arc"... I have it! And yes, it's certainly one of the most impressive and unique films ever made, silent or not, but actually that goes for almost any film by Dreyer. He was one of the most uncompromising directors ever, and apart from his very early works, all his films are masterpieces of intensity, thoughtfulness, and sheer visual mastery. If you liked "Joan", you should definitely get the Criterion Dreyer Box Set with his late sound films. The music by Einhorn for "Joan" is great, too, but I have just read that one of my favourite bands/soundtrack composers, In The Nursery, have made an all new score for it, and I seriously hope that this will be released together with the film somewhere, too. Best Thomas