From DianaGM at dgmweb.net  Wed Feb 14 12:08:33 2007
From: DianaGM at dgmweb.net (Diana Gale Matthiesen)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:08:33 -0500
Subject: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
Message-ID: <004a01c7505a$c28fef40$6401a8c0@HP>

 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: max at familytreedna.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:54 PM
> To: DianaGM at dgmweb.net
> Subject: Adding members from other labs
> 
> To Rasey group manager,
> 
> From time to time we receive requests to allow people who have tested with
> other labs to join Family Tree DNA Surname Projects. We have always
> avoided adding results from other labs to our database because as a
> question of results integrity, we wanted that all project members to be
> tested with Family Tree DNA.
> 
> In discussing this subject with a few group administrators we settled on a
> solution that was to their and our satisfaction: we agreed to offer our
> 12,25 and 37-marker at a below cost rate, so that we can allow those
> individuals to get tested with us and join your Surname Projects. But this
> will be offered for a limited time.
> 
> The individuals will fill in a LAB CONVERSION FORM found at
> http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/PROMO_GAP.pdf (this link is 
> also at your GAP), and send it back to our office for verification, so that we
can
> enter the order. Due to the fact that this is a below cost offer, we are
> limiting the time during which it will be available. Those forms need to
> be filled and returned to us by March 31, 2007. Should you have any
> questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> 
> As always, we thank you for your support.
> 
> 
> E-mail anytime!
> 
> Max Blankfeld
> Vice-President, Operations and Marketing


From jim.jhtyler at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 12:46:48 2007
From: jim.jhtyler at gmail.com (Jim Tyler)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:46:48 -0500
Subject: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
In-Reply-To: <004a01c7505a$c28fef40$6401a8c0@HP>
References: <004a01c7505a$c28fef40$6401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <4ebc9a870702140946x449e121em9209413b459576a0@mail.gmail.com>

This is an interesting development, but I wonder how many Rasey's etc. have
been tested at other labs. And how many other labs are out there? The
results so far may have dismayed Rasey researchers. Myself I was believing
the myth as my aunt, Ruth Rasey Simpson, revealed it to me in the early
60's. When I started looking at the Rasey history in 1998, I began to have
my doubts and the DNA has proven the myth for what it is. it is too bad that
a man of the cloth, Rev. C. E. S. Rasey, was the person apparently
responsible for having the Rasey entry made in America Heraldica. The source
of his information has been elusive. When he died in Richfield Springs, NY
in 1937, his will did not specify the disposal of his papers except in the
vague terms that he hoped his executrix would dispose of them as he had
indicted. i have contacted various libraries without luck. The fact that he
was in Ithaca, NY as a student (at Cornell?) led me to that library, but
without any results. If anyone could find his papers, his source might be
revealed.
Jim Tyler
P. S. How many are on this mailing list and is it too much to ask their
identity?

On 2/14/07, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM at dgmweb.net> wrote:
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: max at familytreedna.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:54 PM
> > To: DianaGM at dgmweb.net
> > Subject: Adding members from other labs
> >
> > To Rasey group manager,
> >
> > From time to time we receive requests to allow people who have tested
> with
> > other labs to join Family Tree DNA Surname Projects. We have always
> > avoided adding results from other labs to our database because as a
> > question of results integrity, we wanted that all project members to be
> > tested with Family Tree DNA.
> >
> > In discussing this subject with a few group administrators we settled on
> a
> > solution that was to their and our satisfaction: we agreed to offer our
> > 12,25 and 37-marker at a below cost rate, so that we can allow those
> > individuals to get tested with us and join your Surname Projects. But
> this
> > will be offered for a limited time.
> >
> > The individuals will fill in a LAB CONVERSION FORM found at
> > http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/PROMO_GAP.pdf (this link is
> > also at your GAP), and send it back to our office for verification, so
> that we
> can
> > enter the order. Due to the fact that this is a below cost offer, we are
> > limiting the time during which it will be available. Those forms need to
> > be filled and returned to us by March 31, 2007. Should you have any
> > questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> >
> > As always, we thank you for your support.
> >
> >
> > E-mail anytime!
> >
> > Max Blankfeld
> > Vice-President, Operations and Marketing
>
> _______________________________________________
> RASEY-DNA mailing list
> RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
>

From DianaGM at dgmweb.net  Wed Feb 14 13:37:01 2007
From: DianaGM at dgmweb.net (Diana Gale Matthiesen)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:37:01 -0500
Subject: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
In-Reply-To: <4ebc9a870702140946x449e121em9209413b459576a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004a01c7505a$c28fef40$6401a8c0@HP>
	<4ebc9a870702140946x449e121em9209413b459576a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c75067$1eaa4f80$6401a8c0@HP>

Hello Jim,

I can tell you there are five of us on the list, but I'm not at liberty to
divulge their names.  If they want to reveal themselves, it's their option.

I don't suppose there are any RASEYs/etc. out there who've been tested
elsewhere, but I felt obliged to pass on the notice of the offer.

Yes, I agree that destroying the myth of a MacLEOD of Raasey origin for Joseph
RASEY has been a blow to many (including this "Highlander" fan!).  I'm rather
inclined, though, to think that the actual perpetrator was the author of
"America Heraldica," Edgar de Valcourt-Vermont (two bits says that wasn't his
real name).  He was creating a book for commercial sale (hence the hoity-toity
title and moniker), and there were many of these "vanity" books created around
the turn of the century for this purpose.  You sell books by telling people what
they want to hear, and many of these writers/publishers were totally
unscrupulous.  I think our trusting Rev. RASEY was probably duped into
contributing both his name and, probably, some money to further publication of
the book.

There are still companies out there, today, duping genealogy novices into buying
expensively bound "surname books" that are worthless compilations (e.g., from
old phone books) and renderings of "coats of arms" that are either inappropriate
or faniciful.  When it comes to human vanity, be skeptical -- and hang on to
your wallet!

Diana

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net 
> [mailto:rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net] On Behalf Of Jim Tyler
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:47 PM
> To: Mailing list for genealogists interested in using 
> Y-chromosome DNAtesting as an aid to research on surnames 
> RASEY, RAZEY, RAZEY,RACEY, etc.
> Subject: Re: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
> 
> This is an interesting development, but I wonder how many 
> Rasey's etc. have
> been tested at other labs. And how many other labs are out there? The
> results so far may have dismayed Rasey researchers. Myself I 
> was believing
> the myth as my aunt, Ruth Rasey Simpson, revealed it to me in 
> the early
> 60's. When I started looking at the Rasey history in 1998, I 
> began to have
> my doubts and the DNA has proven the myth for what it is. it 
> is too bad that
> a man of the cloth, Rev. C. E. S. Rasey, was the person apparently
> responsible for having the Rasey entry made in America 
> Heraldica. The source
> of his information has been elusive. When he died in 
> Richfield Springs, NY
> in 1937, his will did not specify the disposal of his papers 
> except in the
> vague terms that he hoped his executrix would dispose of them 
> as he had
> indicted. i have contacted various libraries without luck. 
> The fact that he
> was in Ithaca, NY as a student (at Cornell?) led me to that 
> library, but
> without any results. If anyone could find his papers, his 
> source might be
> revealed.
> Jim Tyler
> P. S. How many are on this mailing list and is it too much to 
> ask their
> identity?
> 
> On 2/14/07, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM at dgmweb.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: max at familytreedna.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:54 PM
> > > To: DianaGM at dgmweb.net
> > > Subject: Adding members from other labs
> > >
> > > To Rasey group manager,
> > >
> > > From time to time we receive requests to allow people who 
> have tested
> > with
> > > other labs to join Family Tree DNA Surname Projects. We 
> have always
> > > avoided adding results from other labs to our database 
> because as a
> > > question of results integrity, we wanted that all project 
> members to be
> > > tested with Family Tree DNA.
> > >
> > > In discussing this subject with a few group 
> administrators we settled on
> > a
> > > solution that was to their and our satisfaction: we 
> agreed to offer our
> > > 12,25 and 37-marker at a below cost rate, so that we can 
> allow those
> > > individuals to get tested with us and join your Surname 
> Projects. But
> > this
> > > will be offered for a limited time.
> > >
> > > The individuals will fill in a LAB CONVERSION FORM found at
> > > http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/PROMO_GAP.pdf (this link is
> > > also at your GAP), and send it back to our office for 
> verification, so
> > that we
> > can
> > > enter the order. Due to the fact that this is a below 
> cost offer, we are
> > > limiting the time during which it will be available. 
> Those forms need to
> > > be filled and returned to us by March 31, 2007. Should 
> you have any
> > > questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> > >
> > > As always, we thank you for your support.
> > >
> > >
> > > E-mail anytime!
> > >
> > > Max Blankfeld
> > > Vice-President, Operations and Marketing
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > RASEY-DNA mailing list
> > RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> > http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
> >
> _______________________________________________
> RASEY-DNA mailing list
> RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
> 
> 


From kenneth.razee at fmglobal.com  Wed Feb 14 13:52:46 2007
From: kenneth.razee at fmglobal.com (Razee, Kenneth)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:52:46 -0500
Subject: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
Message-ID: <0C9BA05A5C56814BB26A60AE6ED1535503BD8A3E@JOHNEXCHP06.corp.fmglobal.com>

I don't mind revealing myself.

Thanks,

Ken 

Kenneth Razee
Premium Collections & Ceded Reinsurance Manager
Bus. +1 (1) 401 275 3000 ext 1530
Fax  +1 (1) 401 275 0688
Cell +1 (1)  401 374 9352
e-mail - kenneth.razee at fmglobal.com



-----Original Message-----
From: rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net [mailto:rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net]
On Behalf Of Diana Gale Matthiesen
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:37 PM
To: RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
Subject: Re: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs


Hello Jim,

I can tell you there are five of us on the list, but I'm not at liberty
to
divulge their names.  If they want to reveal themselves, it's their
option.

I don't suppose there are any RASEYs/etc. out there who've been tested
elsewhere, but I felt obliged to pass on the notice of the offer.

Yes, I agree that destroying the myth of a MacLEOD of Raasey origin for
Joseph
RASEY has been a blow to many (including this "Highlander" fan!).  I'm
rather
inclined, though, to think that the actual perpetrator was the author of
"America Heraldica," Edgar de Valcourt-Vermont (two bits says that
wasn't his
real name).  He was creating a book for commercial sale (hence the
hoity-toity
title and moniker), and there were many of these "vanity" books created
around
the turn of the century for this purpose.  You sell books by telling
people what
they want to hear, and many of these writers/publishers were totally
unscrupulous.  I think our trusting Rev. RASEY was probably duped into
contributing both his name and, probably, some money to further
publication of
the book.

There are still companies out there, today, duping genealogy novices
into buying
expensively bound "surname books" that are worthless compilations (e.g.,
from
old phone books) and renderings of "coats of arms" that are either
inappropriate
or faniciful.  When it comes to human vanity, be skeptical -- and hang
on to
your wallet!

Diana

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net 
> [mailto:rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net] On Behalf Of Jim Tyler
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:47 PM
> To: Mailing list for genealogists interested in using 
> Y-chromosome DNAtesting as an aid to research on surnames 
> RASEY, RAZEY, RAZEY,RACEY, etc.
> Subject: Re: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
> 
> This is an interesting development, but I wonder how many 
> Rasey's etc. have
> been tested at other labs. And how many other labs are out there? The
> results so far may have dismayed Rasey researchers. Myself I 
> was believing
> the myth as my aunt, Ruth Rasey Simpson, revealed it to me in 
> the early
> 60's. When I started looking at the Rasey history in 1998, I 
> began to have
> my doubts and the DNA has proven the myth for what it is. it 
> is too bad that
> a man of the cloth, Rev. C. E. S. Rasey, was the person apparently
> responsible for having the Rasey entry made in America 
> Heraldica. The source
> of his information has been elusive. When he died in 
> Richfield Springs, NY
> in 1937, his will did not specify the disposal of his papers 
> except in the
> vague terms that he hoped his executrix would dispose of them 
> as he had
> indicted. i have contacted various libraries without luck. 
> The fact that he
> was in Ithaca, NY as a student (at Cornell?) led me to that 
> library, but
> without any results. If anyone could find his papers, his 
> source might be
> revealed.
> Jim Tyler
> P. S. How many are on this mailing list and is it too much to 
> ask their
> identity?
> 
> On 2/14/07, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM at dgmweb.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: max at familytreedna.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:54 PM
> > > To: DianaGM at dgmweb.net
> > > Subject: Adding members from other labs
> > >
> > > To Rasey group manager,
> > >
> > > From time to time we receive requests to allow people who 
> have tested
> > with
> > > other labs to join Family Tree DNA Surname Projects. We 
> have always
> > > avoided adding results from other labs to our database 
> because as a
> > > question of results integrity, we wanted that all project 
> members to be
> > > tested with Family Tree DNA.
> > >
> > > In discussing this subject with a few group 
> administrators we settled on
> > a
> > > solution that was to their and our satisfaction: we 
> agreed to offer our
> > > 12,25 and 37-marker at a below cost rate, so that we can 
> allow those
> > > individuals to get tested with us and join your Surname 
> Projects. But
> > this
> > > will be offered for a limited time.
> > >
> > > The individuals will fill in a LAB CONVERSION FORM found at
> > > http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/PROMO_GAP.pdf (this link is
> > > also at your GAP), and send it back to our office for 
> verification, so
> > that we
> > can
> > > enter the order. Due to the fact that this is a below 
> cost offer, we are
> > > limiting the time during which it will be available. 
> Those forms need to
> > > be filled and returned to us by March 31, 2007. Should 
> you have any
> > > questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> > >
> > > As always, we thank you for your support.
> > >
> > >
> > > E-mail anytime!
> > >
> > > Max Blankfeld
> > > Vice-President, Operations and Marketing
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > RASEY-DNA mailing list
> > RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> > http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
> >
> _______________________________________________
> RASEY-DNA mailing list
> RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
RASEY-DNA mailing list
RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna

From jim.jhtyler at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 16:12:03 2007
From: jim.jhtyler at gmail.com (Jim Tyler)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:12:03 -0500
Subject: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
In-Reply-To: <005a01c75067$1eaa4f80$6401a8c0@HP>
References: <004a01c7505a$c28fef40$6401a8c0@HP>
	<4ebc9a870702140946x449e121em9209413b459576a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<005a01c75067$1eaa4f80$6401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <4ebc9a870702141312s495943c7r5b113a189b4c4ad0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Diana,
I know what you mean. A few years ago a Tyler cousin and I bought identical
books. Fortunately, we spent less than $20.00. We learned our lesson.
Best regards,
Jim

On 2/14/07, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM at dgmweb.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Jim,
>
> I can tell you there are five of us on the list, but I'm not at liberty to
> divulge their names.  If they want to reveal themselves, it's their
> option.
>
> I don't suppose there are any RASEYs/etc. out there who've been tested
> elsewhere, but I felt obliged to pass on the notice of the offer.
>
> Yes, I agree that destroying the myth of a MacLEOD of Raasey origin for
> Joseph
> RASEY has been a blow to many (including this "Highlander" fan!).  I'm
> rather
> inclined, though, to think that the actual perpetrator was the author of
> "America Heraldica," Edgar de Valcourt-Vermont (two bits says that wasn't
> his
> real name).  He was creating a book for commercial sale (hence the
> hoity-toity
> title and moniker), and there were many of these "vanity" books created
> around
> the turn of the century for this purpose.  You sell books by telling
> people what
> they want to hear, and many of these writers/publishers were totally
> unscrupulous.  I think our trusting Rev. RASEY was probably duped into
> contributing both his name and, probably, some money to further
> publication of
> the book.
>
> There are still companies out there, today, duping genealogy novices into
> buying
> expensively bound "surname books" that are worthless compilations (e.g.,
> from
> old phone books) and renderings of "coats of arms" that are either
> inappropriate
> or faniciful.  When it comes to human vanity, be skeptical -- and hang on
> to
> your wallet!
>
> Diana
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net
> > [mailto:rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net] On Behalf Of Jim Tyler
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:47 PM
> > To: Mailing list for genealogists interested in using
> > Y-chromosome DNAtesting as an aid to research on surnames
> > RASEY, RAZEY, RAZEY,RACEY, etc.
> > Subject: Re: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
> >
> > This is an interesting development, but I wonder how many
> > Rasey's etc. have
> > been tested at other labs. And how many other labs are out there? The
> > results so far may have dismayed Rasey researchers. Myself I
> > was believing
> > the myth as my aunt, Ruth Rasey Simpson, revealed it to me in
> > the early
> > 60's. When I started looking at the Rasey history in 1998, I
> > began to have
> > my doubts and the DNA has proven the myth for what it is. it
> > is too bad that
> > a man of the cloth, Rev. C. E. S. Rasey, was the person apparently
> > responsible for having the Rasey entry made in America
> > Heraldica. The source
> > of his information has been elusive. When he died in
> > Richfield Springs, NY
> > in 1937, his will did not specify the disposal of his papers
> > except in the
> > vague terms that he hoped his executrix would dispose of them
> > as he had
> > indicted. i have contacted various libraries without luck.
> > The fact that he
> > was in Ithaca, NY as a student (at Cornell?) led me to that
> > library, but
> > without any results. If anyone could find his papers, his
> > source might be
> > revealed.
> > Jim Tyler
> > P. S. How many are on this mailing list and is it too much to
> > ask their
> > identity?
> >
> > On 2/14/07, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM at dgmweb.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: max at familytreedna.com
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:54 PM
> > > > To: DianaGM at dgmweb.net
> > > > Subject: Adding members from other labs
> > > >
> > > > To Rasey group manager,
> > > >
> > > > From time to time we receive requests to allow people who
> > have tested
> > > with
> > > > other labs to join Family Tree DNA Surname Projects. We
> > have always
> > > > avoided adding results from other labs to our database
> > because as a
> > > > question of results integrity, we wanted that all project
> > members to be
> > > > tested with Family Tree DNA.
> > > >
> > > > In discussing this subject with a few group
> > administrators we settled on
> > > a
> > > > solution that was to their and our satisfaction: we
> > agreed to offer our
> > > > 12,25 and 37-marker at a below cost rate, so that we can
> > allow those
> > > > individuals to get tested with us and join your Surname
> > Projects. But
> > > this
> > > > will be offered for a limited time.
> > > >
> > > > The individuals will fill in a LAB CONVERSION FORM found at
> > > > http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/PROMO_GAP.pdf (this link is
> > > > also at your GAP), and send it back to our office for
> > verification, so
> > > that we
> > > can
> > > > enter the order. Due to the fact that this is a below
> > cost offer, we are
> > > > limiting the time during which it will be available.
> > Those forms need to
> > > > be filled and returned to us by March 31, 2007. Should
> > you have any
> > > > questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> > > >
> > > > As always, we thank you for your support.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > E-mail anytime!
> > > >
> > > > Max Blankfeld
> > > > Vice-President, Operations and Marketing
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > RASEY-DNA mailing list
> > > RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> > > http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > RASEY-DNA mailing list
> > RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> > http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> RASEY-DNA mailing list
> RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
>

From DianaGM at dgmweb.net  Wed Feb 14 22:29:14 2007
From: DianaGM at dgmweb.net (Diana Gale Matthiesen)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:29:14 -0500
Subject: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
In-Reply-To: <4ebc9a870702141312s495943c7r5b113a189b4c4ad0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004a01c7505a$c28fef40$6401a8c0@HP><4ebc9a870702140946x449e121em9209413b459576a0@mail.gmail.com><005a01c75067$1eaa4f80$6401a8c0@HP>
	<4ebc9a870702141312s495943c7r5b113a189b4c4ad0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801c750b1$780a1a70$6401a8c0@HP>

One of my aunt's gave my grandfather a beautifully rendered coat of arms, which
he cherished.  I didn't have the heart to tell him...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net 
> [mailto:rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net] On Behalf Of Jim Tyler
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 4:12 PM
> To: Mailing list for genealogists interested in using 
> Y-chromosome DNAtesting as an aid to research on surnames 
> RASEY, RAZEY, RAZEY,RACEY, etc.
> Subject: Re: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
> 
> Hi Diana,
> I know what you mean. A few years ago a Tyler cousin and I 
> bought identical
> books. Fortunately, we spent less than $20.00. We learned our lesson.
> Best regards,
> Jim
> 


From jim.jhtyler at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 11:56:05 2007
From: jim.jhtyler at gmail.com (Jim Tyler)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:56:05 -0500
Subject: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
In-Reply-To: <002801c750b1$780a1a70$6401a8c0@HP>
References: <004a01c7505a$c28fef40$6401a8c0@HP>
	<4ebc9a870702140946x449e121em9209413b459576a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<005a01c75067$1eaa4f80$6401a8c0@HP>
	<4ebc9a870702141312s495943c7r5b113a189b4c4ad0@mail.gmail.com>
	<002801c750b1$780a1a70$6401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <4ebc9a870702280856i1dadb6a1s1eccdc77d273935a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Diana,
My grandfather Rasey's nephew, Charles W., was the big genealogist of the
family in the early 20th century. He had a lot of time and money to write
letters and do research. He is the one who purchased the copy of America
Heraldica that I now have. Later either he or is two daughters had a
rendering of the coat-of-arms prepared that probably is just like the one
you mentioned. Neither daughter had children and eventually struck up a
correspondence with my aunt and passed Rasey information on to her that I
now have.

Now a question about DNA, if you don't mind. I had mine analyzed and
compared to another Tyler of known lineage back to the immigrant Job Tyler.
In my case I am brick walled at my gr-gr-grandfather. We have a 35-37 match
and 64-67 match. For the 35-37 match Family Tree suggests the most recent
common ancestor is within 12 generations. The mutations are at loci 16 and
34 where mine are one number less than his (11-12 and 35-36). At locus 55 it
is the other way, I am 17 and he is 16. Is there any data that can explain
in what generation the mutations took place?
The reason I chose the person analyzed is that when my gr-gr-grandfather
died in 1851 he was buried next to a 6 year old Tyler girl whose father is
an direct ancestor of my comparison.
Any thoughts? Thank you.
Best regards,
Jim

On 2/14/07, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM at dgmweb.net> wrote:
>
> One of my aunt's gave my grandfather a beautifully rendered coat of arms,
> which
> he cherished.  I didn't have the heart to tell him...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net
> > [mailto:rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net] On Behalf Of Jim Tyler
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 4:12 PM
> > To: Mailing list for genealogists interested in using
> > Y-chromosome DNAtesting as an aid to research on surnames
> > RASEY, RAZEY, RAZEY,RACEY, etc.
> > Subject: Re: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
> >
> > Hi Diana,
> > I know what you mean. A few years ago a Tyler cousin and I
> > bought identical
> > books. Fortunately, we spent less than $20.00. We learned our lesson.
> > Best regards,
> > Jim
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> RASEY-DNA mailing list
> RASEY-DNA at dgmweb.net
> http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rasey-dna
>

From DianaGM at dgmweb.net  Wed Feb 28 13:12:58 2007
From: DianaGM at dgmweb.net (Diana Gale Matthiesen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:12:58 -0500
Subject: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
In-Reply-To: <4ebc9a870702280856i1dadb6a1s1eccdc77d273935a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004a01c7505a$c28fef40$6401a8c0@HP><4ebc9a870702140946x449e121em9209413b459576a0@mail.gmail.com><005a01c75067$1eaa4f80$6401a8c0@HP><4ebc9a870702141312s495943c7r5b113a189b4c4ad0@mail.gmail.com><002801c750b1$780a1a70$6401a8c0@HP>
	<4ebc9a870702280856i1dadb6a1s1eccdc77d273935a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c75b64$14583210$6401a8c0@HP>

Hi Jim,

These estimates to MRCA (most recent common ancestor) are based on an average
frequency of mutation derived from very large sample sizes.  The problem is
applying that average (which is a *descriptive* statistic, not a natural
constant)  to individual cases.  In my opinion (speaking here as the retired
biologist), it shouldn't be done for genealogical purposes, and I can give you a
parallel example that makes the reason easy to understand.

The average life expectancy in the U.S. (based on a HUGE database of age at
death) is, I believe, currently 77.9 years.  So, how certain are you that you
will die at age 77.9?  Not very, right?  You could die as a child or live to be
90.  Average age at death is merely a descriptive statistic, not a constant of
nature.  Same thing with regard to mutations.  

Mutations are RANDOM events and random is not just "un-even," it is the OPPOSITE
of even.  You cannot treat the frequency of mutations as if it were a natural
contant, especially not in situations like these, where we are talking about a
few dozen generations in a few families.  The sample size is to small.  Just as
you cannot apply an average age at death in a population to an individual
person's life, you cannot apply an average mutation rate in a species to an
individual line, except in the most gross way (e.g., it's soooo improbable that
ten mutations could arise between father and son that you can consider it proof
of non-paternity).  

<end of lecture - whew!>

If you are matching 64/67, I'd guess FTDNA is estimating that you have about an
80% chance of having an MRCA within the past 12 generations.  I wouldn't argue
with that, but keep in mind there is also a 20% chance that the MRCA is not
within 12 generations, and the tails on this probability curve are long, that
is, 12 could be waaay off.  That said, if you are matching this other TYLER line
64/67, I would not dispute that you could have a close common ancestor, possibly
as near as 6 generations and easily 12, but there is absolutely no way to
*calculate* the distance between you or the generation in which the mutations
occur.  The "slop" in the "mutation rate" statistic is *greater* than the
distances you are trying to measure.  

What you need to do, at this point, is determine the most probable haplotype of
your mutual progenitor, and to do that you need to test more cousins.  You see,
what you don't know at this point is which of the mutations you carry is an
actual change.  It may be that the other Tyler carries a haplotype unchanged
from the progenitor, but you have had three mutations in your line.  Or you may
match the progenitor and he has had the three changes.  Or neither of you
matches the progenitor, and you have had two changes and he has had one -- or
you have had one and he has had two.  It's a case of testing as many lines of
descent as you can, then logically deducing when each mutation must have
occurred based on who carries them based on your paper pedigrees.

I have begun to reach this point with my mother's STRAUBs.  We have eight
individuals tested who have a 63/67 or better match.  Two match 67/67, and they
carry the most common value for the group *at every marker*, so have the "modal"
haplotype for the group.  The modal haplotype is considered to be that of the
progenitor, and none of the eight differs from it by more than 2.  Note that
while several individuals in the group have a genetic distance from each other
as high as four, no one differs from the progenitor by more than two.  The
tables and discussion on the STRAUB site may help:

http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI.shtml#I1a-AS5 

Please note also that I have begun to construct a "node chart" for this group:

http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-NodeChart-I1a-AS5.shtml 

The node chart doesn't show much at this point because too few cousins have been
tested.  We have only one case where we have identified the individual with a
new mutation (two brothers who differ by one).  It will take a lot more testing,
but eventually we can deduce where existing mutations in the family occurred,
and that can support or refute some paper connections.  This kind of limited DNA
testing is about supporting or falsifying hypotheses of relationship, and the
conclusions are based on logical deductions, not mathematical calculations of
distance.

And, yes, I hope to eventually construct a node chart for RASEY, though it will
likely be years before we have enough individuals tested.  If the TYLER admin
isn't creating one for TYLER, you can create one for yourself, assuming the
lineages of the test subjects are supplied.  And now you know why I harp on
having participants supply their lineages to my projects.

Hope this helps,
Diana



> -----Original Message-----
> From: rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net 
> [mailto:rasey-dna-bounces at dgmweb.net] On Behalf Of Jim Tyler
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 11:56 AM
> To: rasey-dna at dgmweb.net
> Subject: Re: [RASEY-DNA] FW: Adding members from other labs
> 
> Hi Diana,
<snip>
> 
> Now a question about DNA, if you don't mind. I had mine analyzed and
> compared to another Tyler of known lineage back to the immigrant Job Tyler.
> In my case I am brick walled at my gr-gr-grandfather. We have a 35-37 match
> and 64-67 match. For the 35-37 match Family Tree suggests the most recent
> common ancestor is within 12 generations. The mutations are at loci 16 and
> 34 where mine are one number less than his (11-12 and 35-36). 
> At locus 55 it is the other way, I am 17 and he is 16. Is there any data 
> that can explain in what generation the mutations took place?
> The reason I chose the person analyzed is that when my gr-gr-grandfather
> died in 1851 he was buried next to a 6 year old Tyler girl whose father is
> an direct ancestor of my comparison.
>
> Any thoughts? Thank you.
> Best regards,
> Jim
>