[kj] OT: The great Punk Debate

Jpwhkj at aol.com Jpwhkj at aol.com
Sun Oct 17 17:57:08 EDT 2004 

The truth hurts, I guess.

"Punk wouldn't have happened without..." is a really lame argument. It wouldn't have happened without Elvis Presley, I suppose, but so what? You can see all sorts of influences, some strong & some tenuous, for punk. But whatever influenced it (and Maclaren never had an original idea) punk was born in London, with Manchester getting the afterbirth.


In an email dated 17/10/2004 10:41:56 pm GMT Daylight time, Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net> writes:

>
>"I have always seen the Ramones as an update of the 60's garage bands.
>Great pop songs but never what I would term "punk"."
>
>ROB, MY BLOOD IS BOILING. I'M GOING TO FLY OVER TO ENGLAND AND KILL YOU
>AND BUILD A HOVERCRAFT WITH YOUR BONES AND SAIL BACK TO THE STATES ON
>IT.
>
>ALEX IN NYC..HELL BENT ON HOMICIDE
>
>
>
>On Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 05:10 PM, Rob's Arse wrote:
>
>>
>> That's a good point Peter.
>>
>> I have teased Alex for ages about this, but I have always viewed the
>> Dolls as Glam. Trashy, yes but Glam.
>>
>> I have always seen the Ramones as an update of the 60's garage bands.
>> Great pop songs but never what I would term "punk".
>>
>> Punk is much more than the music. I love the nihilism of the Pistols
>> and the general "up yours" attitude. The WHY? That's why I belive that
>> Punk is English.
>>
>> You American guys had a good go though. Full marks for effort lads ;-)
>>
>>  
>>
>> --- "peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: "peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com>
>> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:56:59 +0100
>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
>> <gathering at misera.net>
>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all of it
>>
>> I think that the NY dolls were part of the glam movement,When exactly
>> did
>> the Ramones first tour the UK? and the Ramones were never more than a
>> cult
>> band in the UK.
>> Right, you can generally put any noisy, out of tune band and say they
>> were the original punk band ,some even give examples of bands from the
>> 60s
>> ,saying they can be classed as punk.
>> I think the only way to do it is to see where the first single which
>> was punk as we know it,I put in a search for "First punk single" and
>> it came
>> up with"New Rose" by "The Damned".
>> Right, all we have to do is find out where The Damned came from,and
>> that place will be where punk originated.
>> Does anyone know where The Damned came from?
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Christof hamille" <wessidetempest at hotmail.com>
>> To: <gathering at misera.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 3:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all of it
>>
>>
>> > Agreed Alex
>> >
>> > It seems to obvious. If you have not read or figured out that none
>> of the
>> > punk bands in England happened until AFTER the Ramones toured there
>> then
>> you
>> > can look at McLaren and realize that he knew NOTHING about it until
>> he saw
>> > Richard Hell in NYC and came back to England with the infamous white
>> Les
>> > Paul that was passed on to Steve Jones. That guitar was originally
>> owned
>> by
>> > one Sylvain Sylvain of the NEW YORK DOLLS. And along with that that
>> is
>> > where he got the idea of the tattered clothing with the spray painted
>> > phrases on them. So no matter how you slice it it started in NYC. It
>> > exploded in England.
>> >
>> > That is all of the repeated energy I am putting into this
>> >
>> > enjoy
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > >From: Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
>> > >Reply-To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
>> > ><gathering at misera.net>
>> > >To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
>> > ><gathering at misera.net>
>> > >Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all of it
>> > >Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:02:47 -0400
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Not that it's not a compelling debate, Peter, but with Mik Raven
>> absent,
>> I
>> > >can't summon the stamina to get into it here again.
>> > >
>> > >I'll just cite two names to cement my point: THE RAMONES and RICHARD
>> HELL.
>> > >
>> > >Alex in NYC
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >On Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 08:42 PM, peter.west410 wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>"As was Punk Rock".
>> > >>
>> > >>No way,It may have been conceived in NY,But it was born & breed in
>> the
>> > >>UK.
>> > >>
>> > >>Original Message -----
>> > >>From: "Rob's Arse" <joker at Z6.com>
>> > >>To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
>> > >><gathering at misera.net>
>> > >>Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:00 PM
>> > >>Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all of it
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>I never got what they were about. Just didn't.
>> > >>I have always found them totally alien.
>> > >>Whiney brats.
>> > >>
>> > >>Saw ice Cube once too.Reading festival. So lame it was embarassing.
>> > >>
>> > >>--- Mark G Holt <akillingjoker at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>From: Mark G Holt <akillingjoker at yahoo.co.uk>
>> > >>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:05:04 +0100 (BST)
>> > >>To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"
>> > >><gathering at misera.net>
>> > >>Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all of it
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>i love the beasties too, alex, for what its worth
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> For what it's worth, I think Eminem may indeed be clever --- BUT
>> I'M
>> > >> FUCKIN' SICK OF HIM!
>> > >>
>> > >> Hip Hop I *DO* actually like, despite my genre-sweeping
>> condemnation:
>> > >>
>> > >> Public Enemy, Wu-Tang Clan, Busta Rhymes, Jurassic 5, Nas, (some)
>> > >> Jay-Z, (some) Geto Boys, and I used to quite enjoy the first
>> record
>> by
>> > >> Das Efx. MC Paul Barman, incidentally, is a thousand times more
>> > >> entertaining than Eminem. And I'll always love the Beastie Boys
>> > >> (although they've really become a genre unto themselves).
>> > >>
>> > >> Yeah, Hip Hop was born in NYC. As was Punk Rock. That NYC is long
>> dead
>> > >> and gone.
>> > >>
>> > >> Fuck KRS-One, though.
>> > >>
>> > >> Alex in NYC
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Mark G Holt wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>>That's the Gathering...room for everyone with every opinion and
>> you're
>> > >>>entitled to yours Leigh....
>> > >>>We may not agree but w hat the hell
>> > >>>
>> > >>>cheers
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Mark
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Leigh Newton wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Me, that's who. Fuck Eminem. Joyless cocksucker that
>> > >>>he is.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Leigh
>> > >>>
>> > >>>--- Mark G Holt wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>got to agree here
>> > >>>>straight outta compton is awesome, and who honestly
>> > >>>>doesnt either like or respect eminem?
>> > >>>>then there's the gravel pit.....it's not hip hop
>> > >>>>that's wrong. it's what some people say without
>> > >>>>thinking, i believe
>> > >>>>as for yoga etc, try taoism, it's working for me....
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>cheers
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>mark
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>Devacor at aol.com wrote:
>> > >>>>In a message dated 10/14/2004 5:23:48 PM Eastern
>> > >>>>Daylight Time, vassifer at earthlink.net writes:
>> > >>>>KRS-One, decency zero
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>If Osama Bin Laden ever buy s a rap album, he'll
>> > >>>>probably start with a
>> > >>>>CD by KRS-One.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>The hip-hop anarchist has declared his solidarity
>> > >>>>with Al Qaeda by
>> > >>>>asserting that he and other African-Americans
>> > >>>>"cheered when 9/11
>> > >>>>happened."
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>The rapper, whose real name is Kris Parker, defiled
>> > >>>>the memory of those
>> > >>>>who died in the terrorist attacks as he spouted off
>> > >>>>at a recent New
>> > >>>>Yorker Festival panel discussion.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>I was always let down by KRS- he actually was raised
>> > >>>>by parents who were trained in mystic yoga and he
>> > >>>>was brought up that way. He named was actually
>> > >>>>Krishna, which he changed to kris and "KRS" - he has
>> > >>>>a lot of insight but wound up just getting
>> > >>>>sidetracked by sentiment.
>> > >>>>I recently just rebought the first NWA "Straight
>> > >>>>ou tta Compton"- its great. I remember my jaw dropped
>> > >>>>when I heard it when it first came out. It just came
>> > >>>>outta nowhere and nothing has ever come close.
>> > >>>>_______________________________________________
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