[kj] OT: The great Punk Debate

[Alexander Smith]

"They may have come first, but they never really got it..."

*THEY INVENTED IT, YOU SLACKJAWED, DENIAL-ADDICTED GOONS!*

Alex in NYC



On Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Neil Perry wrote:

> Yeah but Alex, I think what Rob's saying is that,
> well, the American bands weren't really *proper* punk,
> were they? They may have come first, but they never
> really got it...
> Fastening the hatches on my shelter now
> N
>
>
>  --- Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> "I have always seen the Ramones as an update of the
>> 60's garage bands.
>> Great pop songs but never what I would term "punk"."
>>
>> ROB, MY BLOOD IS BOILING. I'M GOING TO FLY OVER TO
>> ENGLAND AND KILL YOU
>> AND BUILD A HOVERCRAFT WITH YOUR BONES AND SAIL BACK
>> TO THE STATES ON
>> IT.
>>
>> ALEX IN NYC..HELL BENT ON HOMICIDE
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 05:10 PM, Rob's Arse
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's a good point Peter.
>>>
>>> I have teased Alex for ages about this, but I have
>> always viewed the
>>> Dolls as Glam. Trashy, yes but Glam.
>>>
>>> I have always seen the Ramones as an update of the
>> 60's garage bands.
>>> Great pop songs but never what I would term
>> "punk".
>>>
>>> Punk is much more than the music. I love the
>> nihilism of the Pistols
>>> and the general "up yours" attitude. The WHY?
>> That's why I belive that
>>> Punk is English.
>>>
>>> You American guys had a good go though. Full marks
>> for effort lads ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- "peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: "peter.west410" <peter.west410 at ntlworld.com>
>>> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:56:59 +0100
>>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>> band!)"
>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all
>> of it
>>>
>>> I think that the NY dolls were part of the glam
>> movement,When exactly
>>> did
>>> the Ramones first tour the UK? and the Ramones
>> were never more than a
>>> cult
>>> band in the UK.
>>> Right, you can generally put any noisy, out of
>> tune band and say they
>>> were the original punk band ,some even give
>> examples of bands from the
>>> 60s
>>> ,saying they can be classed as punk.
>>> I think the only way to do it is to see where the
>> first single which
>>> was punk as we know it,I put in a search for
>> "First punk single" and
>>> it came
>>> up with"New Rose" by "The Damned".
>>> Right, all we have to do is find out where The
>> Damned came from,and
>>> that place will be where punk originated.
>>> Does anyone know where The Damned came from?
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Christof hamille"
>> <wessidetempest at hotmail.com>
>>> To: <gathering at misera.net>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 3:41 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not all
>> of it
>>>
>>>
>>>> Agreed Alex
>>>>
>>>> It seems to obvious. If you have not read or
>> figured out that none
>>> of the
>>>> punk bands in England happened until AFTER the
>> Ramones toured there
>>> then
>>> you
>>>> can look at McLaren and realize that he knew
>> NOTHING about it until
>>> he saw
>>>> Richard Hell in NYC and came back to England
>> with the infamous white
>>> Les
>>>> Paul that was passed on to Steve Jones. That
>> guitar was originally
>>> owned
>>> by
>>>> one Sylvain Sylvain of the NEW YORK DOLLS. And
>> along with that that
>>> is
>>>> where he got the idea of the tattered clothing
>> with the spray painted
>>>> phrases on them. So no matter how you slice it
>> it started in NYC. It
>>>> exploded in England.
>>>>
>>>> That is all of the repeated energy I am putting
>> into this
>>>>
>>>> enjoy
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>> From: Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Reply-To: "A list about all things Killing Joke
>> (the band!)"
>>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>> band!)"
>>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
>> all of it
>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:02:47 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that it's not a compelling debate, Peter,
>> but with Mik Raven
>>> absent,
>>> I
>>>>> can't summon the stamina to get into it here
>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll just cite two names to cement my point:
>> THE RAMONES and RICHARD
>>> HELL.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex in NYC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 08:42 PM,
>> peter.west410 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "As was Punk Rock".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No way,It may have been conceived in NY,But it
>> was born & breed in
>>> the
>>>>>> UK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Rob's Arse" <joker at Z6.com>
>>>>>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>> band!)"
>>>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:00 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
>> all of it
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never got what they were about. Just didn't.
>>>>>> I have always found them totally alien.
>>>>>> Whiney brats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Saw ice Cube once too.Reading festival. So
>> lame it was embarassing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- Mark G Holt <akillingjoker at yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Mark G Holt <akillingjoker at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:05:04 +0100 (BST)
>>>>>> To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the
>> band!)"
>>>>>> <gathering at misera.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Fuck Hip Hop - well not
>> all of it
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i love the beasties too, alex, for what its
>> worth
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alexander Smith <vassifer at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For what it's worth, I think Eminem may
>> indeed be clever --- BUT
>>> I'M
>>>>>> FUCKIN' SICK OF HIM!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hip Hop I *DO* actually like, despite my
>> genre-sweeping
>>
> === message truncated ===>
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