[kj] World Destruction

[B. Oliver Sheppard]

Thanks. Basically, it's like Orwell said -- ruling elites pervert terms 
so that they end up meaning their opposite: "war is peace," "freedom is 
slavery," etc., like he said in _1984_. Terms like democracy, 
capitalism, communism, fascism, etc., are thrown around so much that in 
many contexts they're basically meaningless, because people don't even 
agree on what they mean, or what they OUGHT to mean. "Communism" to some 
people means a stateless, classless society where wealth and duties are 
equitably shared and no one has any privilege over anyone else by virtue 
of race, gender, etc. (The hippie version, you know.) But to others 
"communism" means a big, grey, Evil Empire-like bureaucracy full of all 
sorts of social stratification. Those are two totally opposite ideas. 
That leaders have purposefully conflated and confused the notions (a la 
"war is peace," etc.) only makes discussion about these things all the 
more difficult. But we can all agree totalitarianism, whether it comes 
under a red commie flag, or the US flag of, uh, "freedom," is bad, right?

-Oliver



GREG SLAWSON wrote:

>

> Well said, Oliver! Now that I look at this in a broader context, that 

> not only horrible regimes like Cambodia and N. Korea throw around the 

> "communist" label, but the Nazis called themselves "socialist", 

> everyone has called themsleves "republic" or "democracy", etc., it 

> makes a little more sense. And yes, Marx was the founder of it 

> all--but I think he was wrong that the state would just wither away. I 

> think you need a state apparatus that involves MASS 

> participation--direct democracy of many groups of people who don't 

> just VOTE, but actually run things themselves. And Crack, you should 

> check out a cd by The Coup--you'll like it!

>

>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>     From:  /"B. Oliver Sheppard" <bigblackhair at sbcglobal.net>/

>     Reply-To:  /"A list about all things Killing Joke (the

>     band!)"<gathering at misera.net>/

>     To:  /"A list about all things Killing Joke (the band!)"

>     <gathering at misera.net>/

>     Subject:  /Re: [kj] World Destruction/

>     Date:  /Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:05:55 -0600/

>     >Crack,

>     >

>     >Depends on what you mean by "communist" society. If you mean

>     societies

>     >that have called themselves communist, like Stalin's USSR, the Khmer

>     >Rouge, etc., yeah, those regimes suck. But they cynically call

>     >themselves "communist," in spite of their policies, not because

>     of them.

>     >Communism, at least as Marx meant it (and wasn't he some authority on

>     >the matter?), was a classless, stateless society, which would

>     come after

>     >socialism -- and none of the examples you cited fit this bill.

>     The USSR

>     >also said they were a union of Republics, and North Korea says it

>     is the

>     >People's Democratic North Korea -- are either of them republics, or a

>     >democacy? Of course not. SO why why believe it when they say they're

>     >communist, then? Seems awfully selective. "North Korea says it is a

>     >Republic, therefore I hate any and every country that calls itself a

>     >Republic" -- that makes no sense.

>     >

>     >Ruling elites often use nice-sounding words to get people to go along

>     >with them. Where/when socialist ideology is popular, people call

>     >themselves "socialist" or "communist" appeal to folks. The National

>     >Socialist Party of Germany (Nazis) -- that's some socialism, huh?

>     Or the

>     >People's Republic of China. Yeah, what a republic (representative

>     >democracy) that is. What countries call themselves may or may not

>     have

>     >anything to do with what their true nature is. That includes the USA,

>     >too, which also calls itself a republic. Because, you know, we

>     did some

>     >free trade capitalistically to get all the land here to ship our

>     >freely-traded slaves in and such, to build our shining city on

>     the hill,

>     >etc., etc.

>     >

>     >-Oliver

>     >

>     >

>     >

>     >Crack wrote:

>     > >    I vehemently disagree with the ideals of communism  and the

>     ideals

>     > > of a Communist society. The only people who can progress in

>     communist

>     > > societies are Party members(or their family's) or people who are

>     > > subservient to the State .

>     > >     Even the hardest working most intelligent man will not get

>     > > anywhere in a Communist society unless he is a Party member,

>     and this

>     > > in effect suppresses peoples will to progress and succeed and

>     > > therefore the economy becomes stagnant.

>     > >      Capitalism gives the masses the chance to progress and

>     succeed ,

>     > > Capitalism gives people the freedom to move forward. Communism

>     just

>     > > oppresses the masses and looks after the chosen few (Party

>     members)

>     > >

>     > >

>     > >

>     > >

>     > > From: "GREG SLAWSON" <gregslawson at msn.com>

>     > >

>     > >> Reply-To: "A list about all things Killing Joke (the

>     > >> band!)"<gathering at misera.net>

>     > >> To: gathering at misera.net

>     > >> Subject: Re: [kj] OT: Afrika Bambaataa & John Lydon (Time

>     > >> Zone)-WorldDestruction (1984)

>     > >> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:59:48 -0500

>     > >>

>     > >>

>     > >>

>     > >> RUN-DMC, on the other hand, were true gems (poor Jam-Master Jay).

>     > >> That was back in the days when rap was FUN--as one friend used to

>     > >> describe it,a couple of guys standing on stage yelling at you. It

>     > >> seems like all the contemporary "gansta" rappers have slowed the

>     > >> music down, trying to sound sexy or tough. It's all so serious

>     > >> sounding (except for 70's funk-influenced underground rapper The

>     > >> Coup, who are former members of my communist group and still have

>     > >> the same politics...)

>     > >>

>     > >

>     > >

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>     > >

>     > >

>     >

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